foxwoods 75/150 stud question

[TStoneMBD]

sorry if this is forum clutter. if so give it the X


has anyone played in this game? id like to know how soft it is so that i can determine whether its worth it for me to learn stud or not.

how easy is it to make 4.5BB/100 playing live stud if the game is soft? is it possible for me to do that if i read a few books or do i really need to learn the game right?

thanks for any insight

[Jeffage]

I've never played in that particular game, but I play often in the 75 stud game at the Taj (from what I understand, the games play similarly).

The game is certainly worth your time to learn as there is a lot of money to be made...I'm in a bit of a time crunch right now, but here are some quick thoughts:

Pros
-You will run into few if any truly skilled players; many who play this game are wealthy businessmen, not grinders
-Generally, people play transparently and strategic decisions are easier than hold em. Few people will raise later streets without having what their board represents even though raising with a pair/draw combo is often correct. This makes it easy for you to get max value off hands and eliminate people, etc. Generally, if you have a hand or scary board, you take command. You should take the betting lead generally.
-The game rewards people who pay attention. Third street is huge - if you only play live hands and can analyze the dead cards well to put people on hands accurately, you have a leg up on the competition. Ante stealing is huge.
-Many passive players let many free cards slide off which is to your benefit.

Cons
-The best starting hand holds up less than in hold em. Understand that and be mentally prepared to have sessions where aces lose constantly to two small pair.
-To play well, you must pay STRICT attention to the upcards. This is tiring. You can't play as long as you can at hold em because of this. You can sometimes go long stretches at hold em barely paying attention - if you do this at the stud tables, you will lose your ass and should go home.
-Experts. While there are fewer experts at the high limit stud games than comparable limits at hold em, the ones that exist are very dangerous and can manipulate you to do exactly what they want. Learn who they are and avoid them in marginal spots.

As for how to learn the game, SSFAP is a start. But a cursory reading of it before jumping into a 75 game is not recommended (by me anyway). Play a bunch of 20 or 30 stud first (I'm saying this to you because I know you have a decent roll, this is not good advice for the general public). Don't play very small limits if your goal is to play 75 - the ante structure at the bigger games requires significantly different strategy than a 5-10 game would.

Other recommended reading: Mason's first two poker essays books have a lot of good material on stud. Ones I like include: Common Seven Stud Errors (THIS IS MUST READING) and there are other ones on why hold em players lose at stud and which game is harder that will shed light. Buy these books. Post here. PM me or respond here if you want.

Jeff

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
how easy is it to make 4.5BB/100 playing live stud if the game is soft

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't speak about the exact question you ask here. However, since you bring up winrates, keep in mind that stud hands take longer than HE hands. So if you are shooting for xBB/100 ie xBB/hour....you may be able to make your xBB/100 goal yet miss the underlieing xBB/hour goal.

Just something to keep in mind.

[Vike]

During the week the game is not particularly good, it doesn't always go, or it's shorthanded with a bunch of solid regulars.

During the weekend however it can be good and profitable. There frequently are 2 games going with some loose action that comes in for the weekend. Still, don’t be surprised to sit with 7 solid players. Look for a table change if the game you're in is too solid. Chances are some of the loose action is then in the other game.

Foxwoods used to have a great, and I mean really great 40-80 game going for years that stopped going about 2 years ago. I don't know why but it stopped going and now very rarely goes. Consequently, some went down to 15-30 or 20-40, some went up to 75-150. The great thing about the 40-80 game was that frequently 20-40 players would take a shot at it. So you had a bigger pool of players.

That does not happen much in 75-150 because the jump from 20-40 to 75-150 is just too big. The pool of players in 75-150 is much more limited. And a lot of the players in that pool are quite solid. But there are some loose millionaires in it, plus a few others who play well when winning but tilt off chips when they start to lose.

You might want to try the 20-40 at first. It's quite good, usually about 4-5 games go so you have a good game selection, and it gets your feet wet. Also I heard that recently they spread a 30-60 game. If that's true that'll be a good option. You'll probably get 15-30 and 20-40 players taking a shot.

[mmcd]

I've played in this game a few times and it seemed VERY soft to me (much softer than any mixed game I've ever played in there, which weren't exactly tough). There were a few ok players in the game, but no one really dazzled me with expert play or anything like that. Many of the players were pretty loose and very passive. Lots of multiway pots and a raise would go in on one of the big streets less than 30% of the time. Usually whoever had the betting lead or the most threatening board would bet and everyone else would call or fold. I haven't played online stud high in well over a year so I'm not sure about game quality these days, but that 75 game seemed much softer than the Party 20/40 or even 10/20 used to be. Just read 7CSFAP and cut your teeth at online mid-limits for a week or two and you'll be fine to play in that game. I certainly think 1.5-2bb/hour is doable on weekends.

[Andy B]

At $75/150, does your win rate really have to be 4.5 BB/100 to be worthwhile?

[TStoneMBD]

thanks guys for all the great comments. ive ordered stud for advanced players and will probably read the other books jeffage mentions if i decide to get into it.

andy: its not worth it for me to learn the game if im not making enough money to at least compare to my online hourly rate or my hourly rate playing live NL.

[Andy B]

No-limit cash games have died out before. I suspect that they will again. I don't think that the $75/150 stud game is going anyplace. Besides, stud is a lot more fun than hold'em.

[uwda]

Best avatar ever.

[CarlosChadha]

In my experience you are better of sticking to playing two tables of 30/60 stud online than playing 75/150 stud live, even in the very soft Taj games, if all you are interested in is making money. Personally, I make about double per hour online than I do playing the 75 game at Taj. Keep in mind that I am not as good at live play (tells, staying alert, etc.) as someone life Jeffage, so if you specialize in live play your'd probably do better at the 75 game. Also, I don't play optimally in the live 75 games because I have trouble adjusting to the uber-passive play (especially w/ draws). I suspect that the few full time pros in the Taj 75 game that are there make about 1 big bet an hour (I make a little less than half that).

Another note, Mike Emery told me that he used to play regularly in the 75/150 Taj games, and that he has stopped because he makes more money online playing 30/60 holdem.

Therefore, I don't think it is worth your time to learn stud, unless you live around AC and would be able to play in games higher than 75/150.

Carlos