when to call a habitual pusher

[tuanes]

Samoleus...

Here is a good example from the $5/10 game...this guy went allin probably 5 of the previous 8 hands...while he wasn't showing bluffs, there was positive EV to be had...the following hand proves what you are saying!

***** Hand History for Game 4062559357 *****
$1000 NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, April 22, 22:20:12 ET 2006
Table Speed Read (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 3: Villian ( $5790.51 )
Seat 4: Hero ( $969 )
Seat 5: seat 5 ( $1058 )
Seat 6: seat 6 ( $400 )
Seat 2: seat 2 ( $485 )
Villian posts small blind [$5].
Hero posts big blind [$10].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 4d 4c ]
seat 5 calls [$10].
seat 6 calls [$10].
seat 2 folds.
Villian is all-In.
Hero is all-In.
seat 5 folds.
seat 6 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, Qs, 4s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Kh ]
>You have options at San Benito (No DP) Table!.
Villian shows [ Ts, 3c ] high card king.
Hero shows [ 4d, 4c ] three of a kind, fours.
Villian wins $4821.51 from side pot #1 with high card king.
Hero wins $1956 from the main pot with three of a kind, fours.

[LegallyBlind]

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please stop with this stuff.

sam is easily the best new poster we have had for a long time.

dont be an idiot.

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oh how quickly we forget about Time4Pizza

[fsuplayer]

lol.

[Leptyne]

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Haha - you are ruining my attempt at portraying myself as a gentleman. Yes indeed - comments about yet another mortgage payment followed!

Also, I started really annoying him by counting out loud every time he rebought. He had a 2K stack and had to rebuy a number of times. Full rebuys twice, but I counted even when he added 50 bucks to get it from 1950 to 2K. I kept saying "there's rebuy #7" etc ...

I had the whole table "lol-ing" at him. Was beautiful! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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IMHO you can still be a gentlemen while inflicting damage with a well aimed prick of the pin.

[IHateCats]

Donut is at it again. Pushes 2k with $120 on table from SB with 33. Gets called by Sassypants with AKo, king on flop ends drama.

[nath]

Jeez, where do I find the people pushing 2k PF with garbage? I think even I could beat 10/20 if I found those games.

[jlkrusty]

Sam:

I did some calculations on PokerStove. The question here is what range of hands is he making this all in move. According to PokerStove, the top 35% of the hands are as follows:

55+,A2s+,K3s+,Q6s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A4o+,K8o+,Q9 o+,J9o+,T9o

If we were also to add all pocket pairs into the mix (not just 55+), then assume he is making this all in play with all of the following hands:

22+,A2s+,K3s+,Q6s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A4o+,K8o+,Q9 o+,J9o+,T9o

Here is equity you have with three different hands vs. the above range of hands:

A8o: 50.9%%
A7s: 51.7%
KJo: 50.3%
55: 51.1%

You don't need above 50% equity to make the call since there is some dead money already in the pot.

If you define his hands more narrowly, say:

22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,A7o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

Here is the equity of some hands against this hand range:

A9s: 49.8%
ATo: 52.3%
KQs: 49.5%
66: 50.8%

It appears that making the all in call with 66+ or A8o+ is probably about right.

There may, however, be other considerations. You said that you were raising even more hands (hands that you knew you would fold to his all in raise) just to encourage him to keep up his erratic all ins. This tells me that you are voluntarily giving -EV on these hands just for a more +EV later--when you will make the all-in call. You have also suggested that he might stop his all in bets if he doubled up--suggesting you have limited shots at making up for the -EV you are giving him in the hands you fold. Accordingly, you probably want more than just a marginal +EV to make this call. Of course you can't overdo this, or someone else will pick him off before you do. So, you may want to slightly tighten your calling standards above 66+ and A8o+. If you called with 77+, A9o+, you should be safe.

[samoleus]

Thanks - great post!

[nit]

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Now when you answer, please remember that it is faulty logic to say that I should wait for a huge hand since he will surely do this at some point when I have AA or KK or whatever. This kind of thought process (passing up small edges for the guarantee of bigger ones later) may be sound in tournament play but is not accurate in cash game play. In a cash game (where one can reload), and as long as one is properly bankrolled for the game, one should never pass up a +EV situation for a zero EV situation (folding).

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While this is generally correct for cash games it's not correct here. Once you call and win he will stop pushing, so you miss that future edge you could have against him. I doubt he'd carry on with this strategy if you call with A6 and win, since it shows you have adjusted to him. Yet if you fold again, he'll carry on for how long who knows.

You do have a very close but +EV call now with A6 though and if you think he will carry on pushing after you win this one, i'd call. Or if you think he will stop this strategy soon anyway if you fold, i'd call. Yet if he's going to carry on with it for a while and stop if you win this one, i'd wait for the better spot.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

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Now when you answer, please remember that it is faulty logic to say that I should wait for a huge hand since he will surely do this at some point when I have AA or KK or whatever. This kind of thought process (passing up small edges for the guarantee of bigger ones later) may be sound in tournament play but is not accurate in cash game play. In a cash game (where one can reload), and as long as one is properly bankrolled for the game, one should never pass up a +EV situation for a zero EV situation (folding).

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While this is generally correct for cash games it's not correct here. Once you call and win he will stop pushing, so you miss that future edge you could have against him. I doubt he'd carry on with this strategy if you call with A6 and win, since it shows you have adjusted to him. Yet if you fold again, he'll carry on for how long who knows.

You do have a very close but +EV call now with A6 though and if you think he will carry on pushing after you win this one, i'd call. Or if you think he will stop this strategy soon anyway if you fold, i'd call. Yet if he's going to carry on with it for a while and stop if you win this one, i'd wait for the better spot.

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This point has been brought up repeatedly. When there's such a long thread, try reading it before bumping it as it's very likely that what you think has been posted already.