Ironic?? (atheist--religious)

[Andrew Karpinski]

This isn't really irony. It would be ironic if the catholic church was founded so that people wouldn't believe in God.

[bunny]

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Assuming religion is purely a social phenomenon and has no "subject matter" -

Then I think the yearning for spirituality is an emotional response to the frightening nature of the world (this is why I think individuals like it).

I think the evolution of institutionalised religion is governed primarily by the forces which govern other institutions - ie with the goal of pacifying the disempowered majority and increasing the control of the ruling elite. (Probably "muddied" somewhat by influential members of said institutions who actually believe their own propaganda).

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Then why doesn't it follow (with you), that religion is most likely man-made, and stems only from ancient perceptions of a supernatural being(s)?

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I have written before about why I believe in God - I think this is rational (although my choice of which religion is necessarily irrational). However, I certainly dont discount the possibility that my belief is wrong and that I am one of the deluded masses. If I am deluded then my post above is the most likely explanation in my opinion.

[Lestat]

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Assuming religion is purely a social phenomenon and has no "subject matter" -

Then I think the yearning for spirituality is an emotional response to the frightening nature of the world (this is why I think individuals like it).

I think the evolution of institutionalised religion is governed primarily by the forces which govern other institutions - ie with the goal of pacifying the disempowered majority and increasing the control of the ruling elite. (Probably "muddied" somewhat by influential members of said institutions who actually believe their own propaganda).

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Then why doesn't it follow (with you), that religion is most likely man-made, and stems only from ancient perceptions of a supernatural being(s)?

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I have written before about why I believe in God - I think this is rational (although my choice of which religion is necessarily irrational). However, I certainly dont discount the possibility that my belief is wrong and that I am one of the deluded masses. If I am deluded then my post above is the most likely explanation in my opinion.

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I either missed where you explained this before, or I would like to re-read it. Can you provide a link, or maybe which thread it was in?

Or is it as simple as what you outlined above? That you have a spiritual yearning due to emotional or fearfulness of the world reasons?

[siegfriedandroy]

I think it's misguided for anyone to say that religion was 'invented' for some overarching pragmatic reason. Primitive tribes, for example, didnt invent religion to control people, etc. People were religious (for the most part) b/c they genuinely believed in the supernatural.

[bunny]

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Assuming religion is purely a social phenomenon and has no "subject matter" -

Then I think the yearning for spirituality is an emotional response to the frightening nature of the world (this is why I think individuals like it).

I think the evolution of institutionalised religion is governed primarily by the forces which govern other institutions - ie with the goal of pacifying the disempowered majority and increasing the control of the ruling elite. (Probably "muddied" somewhat by influential members of said institutions who actually believe their own propaganda).

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why doesn't it follow (with you), that religion is most likely man-made, and stems only from ancient perceptions of a supernatural being(s)?

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I have written before about why I believe in God - I think this is rational (although my choice of which religion is necessarily irrational). However, I certainly dont discount the possibility that my belief is wrong and that I am one of the deluded masses. If I am deluded then my post above is the most likely explanation in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I either missed where you explained this before, or I would like to re-read it. Can you provide a link, or maybe which thread it was in?

Or is it as simple as what you outlined above? That you have a spiritual yearning due to emotional or fearfulness of the world reasons?

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I dont know how interesting it is, philosophically. A broad outline of "why I am a theist" (and why I think it is a rational belief) is here

[Copernicus]

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Assuming religion is purely a social phenomenon and has no "subject matter" -

Then I think the yearning for spirituality is an emotional response to the frightening nature of the world (this is why I think individuals like it).

I think the evolution of institutionalised religion is governed primarily by the forces which govern other institutions - ie with the goal of pacifying the disempowered majority and increasing the control of the ruling elite. (Probably "muddied" somewhat by influential members of said institutions who actually believe their own propaganda).

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why doesn't it follow (with you), that religion is most likely man-made, and stems only from ancient perceptions of a supernatural being(s)?

[/ QUOTE ]
I have written before about why I believe in God - I think this is rational (although my choice of which religion is necessarily irrational). However, I certainly dont discount the possibility that my belief is wrong and that I am one of the deluded masses. If I am deluded then my post above is the most likely explanation in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I either missed where you explained this before, or I would like to re-read it. Can you provide a link, or maybe which thread it was in?

Or is it as simple as what you outlined above? That you have a spiritual yearning due to emotional or fearfulness of the world reasons?

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I dont know how interesting it is, philosophically. A broad outline of "why I am a theist" (and why I think it is a rational belief) is here

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Can you be any more specific about the "connection", which you attribute to a connection with god (or if Im misunderstanding the other post, a connection with something else that can only be explained with the existence of god)?

Since it recurred often (is it still recurring?) and you clearly thought deeply about it, were you ever able to put words to it? (Eg a feeling of ____________ (fill in many blanks); reveleations of __________; etc).

The "Born agains" that I have met have claimed to feel connection to god because of euphoric experiences that almost exclusively occurred during religious gatherings. These of course can rationally be explained as the same kind of "high" as anyone might get listening to music, or having one's team win the Frozen Four. (Oops....you might not get that down under, lets say the Super Bowl).


(Note: Im not classifying you as a "Born again", which has negative connotations here, I am referring to people I have met, generally in evolution debates or their proselytizing.)

Also not sure if you saw or answered and I didnt see...are you also BunnyFCP?

[bunny]

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Assuming religion is purely a social phenomenon and has no "subject matter" -

Then I think the yearning for spirituality is an emotional response to the frightening nature of the world (this is why I think individuals like it).

I think the evolution of institutionalised religion is governed primarily by the forces which govern other institutions - ie with the goal of pacifying the disempowered majority and increasing the control of the ruling elite. (Probably "muddied" somewhat by influential members of said institutions who actually believe their own propaganda).

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why doesn't it follow (with you), that religion is most likely man-made, and stems only from ancient perceptions of a supernatural being(s)?

[/ QUOTE ]
I have written before about why I believe in God - I think this is rational (although my choice of which religion is necessarily irrational). However, I certainly dont discount the possibility that my belief is wrong and that I am one of the deluded masses. If I am deluded then my post above is the most likely explanation in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I either missed where you explained this before, or I would like to re-read it. Can you provide a link, or maybe which thread it was in?

Or is it as simple as what you outlined above? That you have a spiritual yearning due to emotional or fearfulness of the world reasons?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont know how interesting it is, philosophically. A broad outline of "why I am a theist" (and why I think it is a rational belief) is here

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you be any more specific about the "connection", which you attribute to a connection with god (or if Im misunderstanding the other post, a connection with something else that can only be explained with the existence of god)?

Since it recurred often (is it still recurring?) and you clearly thought deeply about it, were you ever able to put words to it? (Eg a feeling of ____________ (fill in many blanks); reveleations of __________; etc).

The "Born agains" that I have met have claimed to feel connection to god because of euphoric experiences that almost exclusively occurred during religious gatherings. These of course can rationally be explained as the same kind of "high" as anyone might get listening to music, or having one's team win the Frozen Four. (Oops....you might not get that down under, lets say the Super Bowl).


(Note: Im not classifying you as a "Born again", which has negative connotations here, I am referring to people I have met, generally in evolution debates or their proselytizing.)

Also not sure if you saw or answered and I didnt see...are you also BunnyFCP?

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I am uncomfortable talking about my religious experience/delusion - whichever it is for two reasons. First I'm not good at explaining it, second it seems irrational to me for anyone else to take it seriously (or at least for a non-believer to take it seriously) so it doesnt feel like a philosophy forum is the right place to introduce it in case it seems I am presenting it as "evidence" (which I think it is to me but not to anyone else).

Essentially, it isnt the euphoric high you mentioned but closer to a calm, happy meditative state - it has occurred in a variety of situations (including church more recently but it persisted for many years when I was an "active" atheist). I acknowledge that there are other possible explanations for it - my emotional makeup being the most likely in my opinion (I discount social pressure due to being raised atheistically and having a wide variety of beliefs some in tune with society and my parents/peers some being directly opposed without noticeable tension).

Trust me that my attempts at disbelieving any spiritual reality to it were genuine and protracted - in spite of ten years of active skepticism I still came to believe (rather than choosing to believe) and now find myself having to proceed from there. Intellectually, it would be "neater" to exclude God a la Occam's razor but this doesnt gel with how I find the world.

I hope it is clear this is a description of my position intended as clarifying and not as persuasive - I will repeat that I dont regard someone else claiming religious experience as a rational reason for anybody to accept it as true.

I didnt see you ask and I dont know who that other bunny is. I'm a bridge player and "bunny" is the bridge equivalent of "fish". When I joined here it seemed appropriate given my poker abilities.

[HLMencken]

It wasn't "invented" so much as just grew out of people trying to explain the world and universe around them.

[DonkNitUP]

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would u not agree that there would be more stealing, more killing, and more whatever else if tomorrow it was announced that there was no God?

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I wouldn't agree with this, because I haven't killed anyone in months! Now that I think about it, I've managed to go without stealing anything during this time too!



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I have no problem with it because overall they have good moral values,

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It is the Christian right who are most apt to approve of the Iraqi war (and most wars). Are these the kind of moral values you're talking about?


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because overall they have good moral values, whether it be for the right or wrong reasons (to go to heaven).

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So even though you might think it was for the wrong reasons (believing they were about to receive their 72 virgins), you otherwise approve of the values of those who few planes into the WTC?

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no, you dont kill anyone or steal anything because you have a mind in which you think for yourself. Other people (christians or whoever) behave to please God. So it is my belief that if it is found out there is no God, they wouldnt have anything to care about and could do whatever they wanted (barbaric!!)

also, i cant speak for christians or muslims but i am pretty sure over all they condemn killing. Iradicals such as the 911 bombers do not fit into the muslim religion IMO and therefore you obviously cant approve of their values.

[DonkNitUP]

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It wasn't "invented" so much as just grew out of people trying to explain the world and universe around them.

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I actually tried to pick a word such as "invented" that everyone could agree with.
From dictionary.com ---
in·vent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-vnt)
tr.v. in·vent·ed, in·vent·ing, in·vents
To produce or contrive (something previously unknown) by the use of ingenuity or imagination.

I think we could definately say religion was invented