Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1

[4_2_it]

Playa,

From your recent post, I would say that your issues is with HUDs then and not PT. I can understand your point there and will say that it up to the site to decide what is and isn't ethical. I would happily play without a HUD if they were against the rules.

Our House,

Comparing PT and a HUD (both which are legal under most sites T&Cs) to collusion and hacking (which are not allowed under any sites T&Cs) is a terrible straw man argument. You don't help your cause with it.

I can arrange to have my hand history emailed to me, so in essence the site is saying here it is. Also, many sites (UB and Stars to name 2) have a button on screen that you can press to instantly show your hand history. It is available to all, so how is it cheating if I use it because I wish to improve and someone else doesn't because he is too lazy?

[PlayaHata]

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Our House,

Comparing PT and a HUD (both which are legal under most sites T&Cs) to collusion and hacking (which are not allowed under any sites T&Cs) is a terrible straw man argument. You don't help your cause with it.

I can arrange to have my hand history emailed to me, so in essence the site is saying here it is. Also, many sites (UB and Stars to name 2) have a button on screen that you can press to instantly show your hand history. It is available to all, so how is it cheating if I use it because I wish to improve and someone else doesn't because he is too lazy?

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what our house is saying is that using anything DURING play is unethical/ illegal. if you scroll through the previous posts by our house, you will see that the T&c does not 'allow' PT and PA HUD, it is only 'not forbidden'. (if that makes sense) just because it isnt mentioned in the T&C as forbidden does not necissarily make it just/legal to use it.
Our House has previously also stated that using HH off play is fine, its during play that the problems occur.

[4_2_it]

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Our House,

Comparing PT and a HUD (both which are legal under most sites T&Cs) to collusion and hacking (which are not allowed under any sites T&Cs) is a terrible straw man argument. You don't help your cause with it.

I can arrange to have my hand history emailed to me, so in essence the site is saying here it is. Also, many sites (UB and Stars to name 2) have a button on screen that you can press to instantly show your hand history. It is available to all, so how is it cheating if I use it because I wish to improve and someone else doesn't because he is too lazy?

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what our house is saying is that using anything DURING play is unethical/ illegal. if you scroll through the previous posts by our house, you will see that the T&c does not 'allow' PT and PA HUD, it is only 'not forbidden'. (if that makes sense) just because it isnt mentioned in the T&C as forbidden does not necissarily make it just/legal to use it.
Our House has previously also stated that using HH off play is fine, its during play that the problems occur.

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I believe that Stars and other sites have investigated PT and PA HUD and have gone on record saying that PT, in its current form does not violate its T&Cs. If the site explicitly says it is allowed then it is hard to make a case that it is not allowed [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I still think you can still believe that it is unethical, but saying it violates T&Cs is just not correct.

I think Lee Jones has posted about this issue in the past.

[Our House]

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Comparing PT and a HUD (both which are legal under most sites T&Cs) to collusion and hacking (which are not allowed under any sites T&Cs) is a terrible straw man argument. You don't help your cause with it.

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I only deal with Party's T&C, so I can't speak for other sites, but if you can show me where Party explictly says that HUDs are legal, I will concede to being the straw man. As a matter of fact, it's against T&C for a friend (human intelligence) at your house to help you make decisions while playing. Why would that not apply to artificial intelligence?

[The Truth]

I think I agree with ourhouse here. While I use the programs myself, I do feel that they give us an unfair edge over the average opponent.

I would rather that PP would ban all the programs.

I don't mind PT if it is used to analyze your own play, but the huds are crossing the line.

blake

[4_2_it]

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Comparing PT and a HUD (both which are legal under most sites T&Cs) to collusion and hacking (which are not allowed under any sites T&Cs) is a terrible straw man argument. You don't help your cause with it.

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I only deal with Party's T&C, so I can't speak for other sites, but if you can show me where Party explictly says that HUDs are legal, I will concede to being the straw man. As a matter of fact, it's against T&C for a friend (human intelligence) at your house to help you make decisions while playing. Why would that not apply to artificial intelligence?

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I don't play on Party at all so I cannot really comment on their T&Cs. I am much more familiar with Stars and others.

BTW - If Party wanted to ban HUDs then I would not have a problem with that. It would be very easy for them to come and say that programs XYZ and ABC violate their T&Cs.

[Gregatron]

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Why would that not apply to artificial intelligence?

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HUDS are artifical intelligence? Do you even know what a HUD is? If a HUD is artificial intelligence, so is a digital watch.

[Gregatron]

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No matter what you say this ignorant twit...

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Name calling compliments yr logic well.

You finally outline (change) your position below: using resources others do not or might not have WHILE PLAYING is not okay. Serious question: does this apply to
1) starting hand charts
2) table modifications (eg my stars all black mod, which makes the board easier more comfortable to read)
3) notes I have written about a player
4) a hand calculator used in a tournament to calculate M
5) a pen and paper used in a tournament to calculate M
6) AOLIM to ask a buddy what to do
7) AOLIM to get another player's hole cards

Some of these are ethically okay IMO. Others are not. But I have a logic behind each. Do you? And more specifically, how does you general logical position regarding HUDS and PT apply here? If not why not?

[e_phemeral]

I agree with OP and Our House. I think eventually the only people playing internet poker will be a bunch of computer geeks, armed to the teeth with poker bots and various types of software designed to give them an edge over the other computer geeks with whom they are playing. If you are just a poker player (and not a computer geek), you will be at a disadvantage. Stick to the live game, which is the pure game after all.

[MNpoker]

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I enjoy debates and intellectual arguements. Is that a problem? I dont care if people agree with me, I actually prefer to have people disagree with me and have an INTELLECTUAL arguement.

i guess my question is, why cant i?

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You can, obviously you are, no one has said you can't or shouldn't. I'm curious WHY?

You've said that you want to have an intellectual discussion, most people would want to have these discussions on something they care about.

You also keep writing the same thing over and over and over. I think anyone who is reading this thread sees your point. But are you are considering theirs, how is that an intellectual discussion?
Do you agree that something you may find unetichal others may find ethical? Or is that not possible for 2 rationale people?

You hate PT and think it's unethical and as soon as someone lists reasons why THEY don't think it is you type in the same argument again.
And if that doesn't work you resort to name calling.

(Note: You never did really answer my question on Why Poker Tracker?.
You want to have an intellectual discussion (I get that) but why choose Poker Tracker as a subject?

And if you really don't care if someone agrees with you, why call them names? Usually that's reserved for when you WANT someone to see you point AND agree with you.