An unpleasant overcall.

Eeegah · #1 04-09-2006, 01:45 AM

Six max table. I've been tighter than a drum these past 40 hands as I've been dealt total crap. Table's pretty LAGgy, 45/16 or so on average, but maybe that's typical for 6max I dunno.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (11 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, MP bets, CO calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, UTG folds, MP calls, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, MP calls, Hero calls.

River: (13.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, MP calls, Hero...

Hey I made my fl--crap. Big pot, but (a) I'm overcalling on a double paired board, and (b) against a check/3-better preflop, which seeing as I know where the top four flush cards are doesn't bode well for me.

Three-bettor's nothing special but a bit more passive than he should be postflop. Caller here is very loose preflop (though only 15 PFR) and pretty aggro, near maniac. Bother calling here?

Edit: Bonus question to ponder. If you're folding, how big would you want the pot to be before you called here? Say it's still 3 handed to the river; the dead money folded earlier.

MacGuyV · #2 04-09-2006, 01:52 AM

I think your flop raise blows chunks out of my ass.
I'm folding that river getting anything up to around 20:1.

Eeegah · #3 04-09-2006, 01:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think your flop raise blows chunks out of my ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not trying for a free card here?

ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S · #4 04-09-2006, 02:00 AM

we want 1 pair hands to stick around on this flop, and we dont wanna destroy our implied odds on later streets.

that said i dont hate the flop raise, purely for equity pumping... as it opens us up to be able to cap the flop even 3way with luck. wait. why didn you cap the flop??

anyway turn is fine, river is a fold

edit: oh and i think i want at least 35-40BB in the pot to call?

MacGuyV · #5 04-09-2006, 02:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think your flop raise blows chunks out of my ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not trying for a free card here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not when I'm at a laggy table where I may not get it and I have to face 2 other players behind me with 2 cold. You want overcallers.

Shalara · #6 04-09-2006, 02:44 AM

I call, hoping to god he just made his flush. These guys both sound pretty crazy, so I figure I just might win this a little bit more often than usual with that board & action. I would certainly call 15BB here, given your description of the players. One bet for 15, and the chance one could be betting something like 88 and the other calling with a flush draw? I'm in.

If they were normally calmer or more sane, I'd want more like, um, 20?

Blowup Doll · #7 04-09-2006, 02:47 AM

I'd want 20 BBs to call this.

Thrakkar · #8 04-09-2006, 05:26 AM

the only holdings that make sense to me are:
MP: 2 clubs > Qx (he but should have raised the turn then) > Ax (he should have raised the river then)
SB: 66 or Ax (explains call PF & donk bet on flop) >> Qx (far less likely, but he might have tried to probe you on the flop and get rid of MP)

Given these holdings, you are ALWAYS beaten by SB and SOMETIMES beaten by MP (with Qx, but quite unlikely). To me this basically boils down to how likely you think SB is bluffing. 30-40 BB seems to be a good minimum.

Thomas

P.S. Why didn't you cap the flop?

Thrakkar · #9 04-09-2006, 07:50 AM

I gave this a second thought:

I was thinking of "plausible" hands for SB to justify his action:

a) JTs
PF: calling 2 bets from SB with 4 players already in might be possible (paying 1.5 SB to see a 12 SB pot)

Flop: he can't protect his gutshot laying 12:1 so he checks / it's 15:2 (7.5:1) back to him, needing 14.3:1 for his 3 outer (actually a bit more than 3 outs for runner runner 98); he might think he gets 2 BB on each street from MP and you, so calling would be right, but in order to get rid of any flush draws behind him he raises to protect / nobody caps so no AA; KK (he needs a king!) or QQ out there => important for later streets

Turn: now he's stuck, but the pot is really juicy so he might try a bluff, because he puts the others on 1 pair at best (no capping).

River: same thing

b) 2 clubs (preferably connectors)
PF: calling 2 bets from SB with 4 players already in might be possible (paying 1.5 SB to see a 12 SB pot)

Flop: Maybe he wants to c/r to get better flush draws out? I'm not saying this is a good idea, but who knows what this guy is thinking?

Turn: Bets to see if someone caught trip queens? Maybe wants to show strength in this big pot?

River: Got his flush and bets.

I am NOT saying that this guy made a perfect play with these hands. All I was trying to do is find some hands that MIGHT justify his actions.

So here are 2 reasons for calling this river:
1. He might have played as described above (this has to be correct around 7% of the times, so it might be worth a gamble).
2. A psychological reason. There's one caller so the hands will be shown for sure (at least the one from SB). Since you'll see the cards you cannot "console" yourself that this guy had you beat. You might actually see SB bluffing (or at least losing) and possibly MP winning with a lower flush than yours (you got the nut flush!). Personally I'd get over losing 1 BB more in this big pot much better than folding the winning hand.

Comments please!

Am I taking this too far? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Thomas

tiltaholic · #10 04-09-2006, 12:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think your flop raise blows chunks out of my ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not trying for a free card here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not when I'm at a laggy table where I may not get it and I have to face 2 other players behind me with 2 cold. You want overcallers.

[/ QUOTE ]

i gotta disagree with you here.

2 people are in. 2 people are yet to act. simply calling gets us 2 more sb if they both call. raising gets us 2sb since the 2 who are already in will never fold.

but the table is laggy, so people might just call 2 cold, or someone might 3-bet letting us cap. i want to give them that chance and build a huge pot.