Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw

[betgo]

I don't understand why people say folding or calling is better than pushing. You are 42% against a straight, 39% against a set, and 54% against aces up. You have any combo draw crushed. If it is 3-way allin, you have to be in good shape. If Ansky folds, you get pot odds.

Pushing is not hugely cEV+, but I can't see how any play is better. Calling and folding some turns is ridiculous.

[0evg0]

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I don't understand why people say folding or calling is better than pushing. You are 42% against a straight, 39% against a set, and 54% against aces up. You have any combo draw crushed. If it is 3-way allin, you have to be in good shape. If Ansky folds, you get pot odds.

Pushing is not hugely cEV+, but I can't see how any play is better. Calling and folding some turns is ridiculous.

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Because calling does exactly what shoving does -- except it lets you make a decision with more information (and therefore a better decision) on the turn.

[NoahSD]

Betgo,
A combo draw isn't in his range. His range is at least two pair or better. Calling is better than shoving because when we call we put less money in when we're behind.. not rocket science.

(I said shove first time I heard this hand [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] ).

[ASPoker8]

Calling and folding some turns is far from ridiculous, Betgo.

For example, we call, Ansky folds.

Turn is 3s. He Pots or Shoves or whatever. We fold [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[registrar]

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Are we calling hoping to induce Ansky to jam so the old guy jams so we can call and have pot odds to win a huge pot? If not, I don't understand the call. Ansky is never calling behind us, he's either jamming (with a set or a straight) or folding. If a club hits the turn, I can't believe we're getting paid off unless someone else also has a flush, which happens almost never. We're getting less than 2:1 to call the old guy, with no implied odds IMO. It's also more than 1/3 of our stack to call.

I think the old guy's range is mostly 22 and 33 with a slight chance of A2 or A3 (hasn't played a pot, just put in a small pot-building raise over a C/R). Ansky was in the BB, he could have anything, including a set or a straight. Especially with Ansky, who did C/R the flop after all, still to act behind us, I think this has to be a fold.

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Ansky's kind of unimportant here. He's folding a lot here. Whether we shove or call, he's going to fold or play. I guess he's not playing on with two pair. I guess. I don't know how he plays a set or straight.

Our hand may be face up but against old guy's range and Ansky's pf cr-ing range in a limped pot in BB against a button flop steal, I think we're +EV whether we call, Ansky shoves, old guy shoves and we call, Ansky calls and we see the turn in position with the option to fold.

[LearnedfromTV]

I think I agree with calling but I don't think calling makes a threeway allin any more likely than shoving; ansky's not changing whether he shoves based on whether you did - he's either very strong and sticks it in either way or he isn't and folds either way, because the old guy has to have a big hand (two pair+, with a set+ more likely).

Also, we have the A and 4, so there is exactly one combo draw possible (6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], edit - maybe 75 also). Old guy isn't making that small check-coldthreebet for a third of his stack with it, and if ansky has it (and the old guy has 2 pr+), we're not in that great of shape, since in a three way allin our 4 is killed, and either way two clubs are dead.

[gobboboy]

evg, if the ace pairs then we probably continue on a retardedly small bet, which honestly he's likely to make with 22, 33 or A2/A3. On a 2/3 probably not.

But yeah, calling > shoving > folding.

The interesting part is if we think it's +EV to continue on a 4 turn.

[Exitonly]

13 outs to the nuts, 3 outs to a chop, big pot (4800+) and ~3k behind i think means we stick it in on a turn 4.

[nath]

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live nits folding their sets because they're sure you have a straight i think means we stick it in on a turn 4.

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[driverseati]

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live nits folding their sets because they're sure you have a straight i think means we stick it in on a turn 4.

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However there are a good percentage of nits that always think players under 25 years old are always full of [censored].