Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?

[Thundercat32]

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The key point in this hand history is the last sentence he takes down the next two pots and builds back up over $5k in chips he calls and loses with the KK he's out and doesn't have a chance to build back up.

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And if he had called and hit a set to double up to 18K in chips, would that maybe have been the key point in the hand history?

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3 things A) I don't fold KK preflop here myself B) I'm not trying to promote Hank Azaria as some great poker player. C) Sure you play your normal game for the WSOP meaning you don't psych yourself out you treat it as any other poker tournament, but it's not some stupid $11 rebuy on Stars, this is the WSOP ME let's try and remember that. With that in mind this thread has brought about some interesting points for discussion.

Let's say you call with your KK and will win the hand 1 out of every 5 times doubling to $18k in chips. So if you're able to play the next 5 WSOP MEs and are presented with this same scenario each time on day 1 four times you will be eliminated and one remaining time you will double up to $18k. If you fold you're left with 2,900 in chips, but will not be eliminated any of the 5 times you play the the ME.

So obviously if you are going to take that $18k and get ITM for more than your $50k in buyins over 5 years to show a profit than there's nothing wrong with the call. Personally I'd like my chances of accomplishing that better with 5 shots at it even with a shorter stack than just 1.

[Matte_Maiden]

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The opponent practically told Hank he had aces.

If the guy kept quiet, Hank would have probably called.

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If he gave more than good enough odds to Hank, why would he want a call?

[nath]

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He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces, so it was an awful fold.

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This was not a cash game, it was the main event. He loses, he has to wait another year. Pot odds aren't everything.

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I'm guessing you don't play too many tournaments

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No I don't, and that's the point. Not everyone is a pro playing many tournaments a year. To many, the main event is an experience. An experience they're not willing to risk with such a low chance of survival, even if they have correct pot odds.

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OK, cool. That's fine if you value the experience over taking your best chance to win the tournament.
That said, be aware that thinking like yours is what makes tournaments profitable for professionals.

[nath]

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listen to players talk about getting the right pot odds to call with the worst hand in tournament play, even at WSOP FTs. I respect Rizen a lot as a player, but even he said this on last Tuesday's ESPN coverage he knew he had the worst hand but said he priced himself into the pot.

You need to have other considerations than pot odds in tournament play especially in the latter stages of a tournament. At the final table pot odds are nearly worthless when you know you have the worst hand. It's not like you're going to be at a WSOP FT next week (possible exception Jeff Madsen) but heck you might not make it back for ten years or ever. I really think this is a critical error in thinking.

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This is a critical error in thinking. However, it is on your part.

[nath]

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So tell me how many WSOP FTs have you been to?

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One more than you. Which is also one more than Hank Azaria. I wouldn't even bring this up, except that you've been speaking in such an authoritative tone in this thread with no apparent qualifications that I felt the need to.

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When you get to one throw all the cash game pot odds stuff out the window

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This is wrong, and not just a little wrong, but like completely and totally wrong to the point where you need to change this type of thinking before you ever enter another tournament.

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Thank God someone said it, I've been losing my mind lately listen to players talk about getting the right pot odds to call with the worst hand in tournament play, even at WSOP FTs. I respect Rizen a lot as a player, but even he said this on last Tuesday's ESPN coverage he knew he had the worst hand but said he priced himself into the pot.

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Ah, so you disagree with Rizen's play at a final table. Wasn't it Sklansky who said something about what to do if you get an argument with an MIT grad student about physics and find yourself disagreeing with him?

[jackblack73]

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He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces, so it was an awful fold.

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This was not a cash game, it was the main event. He loses, he has to wait another year. Pot odds aren't everything.

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I'm guessing you don't play too many tournaments

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No I don't, and that's the point. Not everyone is a pro playing many tournaments a year. To many, the main event is an experience. An experience they're not willing to risk with such a low chance of survival, even if they have correct pot odds.

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OK, cool. That's fine if you value the experience over taking your best chance to win the tournament.
That said, be aware that thinking like yours is what makes tournaments profitable for professionals.

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I'm very much aware of that. And I'm not even saying I would lay down the kings. I wasn't there, so I wouldn't know what kind of odds he actually had, how the hand played out, or how strong a read he had. If his pot odds were that good, I suspect the hand was played poorly and there was an opportunity to move all in before the other player did. But I really don't know that much about the hand. I'm also not laying down kings in any of the $60-$100 tournaments that I play in. But I'm no pro and the main event is THE MAIN EVENT. I suspect I'll be lucky if I play it once in my life. Unlike you and many of the players here, I don't play enough for the pot odds in a situation like that to even themselves out. Cash games I make that call, but I can understand him laying it down there.

[Thundercat32]

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So tell me how many WSOP FTs have you been to?

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One more than you. Which is also one more than Hank Azaria. I wouldn't even bring this up, except that you've been speaking in such an authoritative tone in this thread with no apparent qualifications that I felt the need to.

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When you get to one throw all the cash game pot odds stuff out the window

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This is wrong, and not just a little wrong, but like completely and totally wrong to the point where you need to change this type of thinking before you ever enter another tournament.

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Thank God someone said it, I've been losing my mind lately listen to players talk about getting the right pot odds to call with the worst hand in tournament play, even at WSOP FTs. I respect Rizen a lot as a player, but even he said this on last Tuesday's ESPN coverage he knew he had the worst hand but said he priced himself into the pot.

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Ah, so you disagree with Rizen's play at a final table. Wasn't it Sklansky who said something about what to do if you get an argument with an MIT grad student about physics and find yourself disagreeing with him?

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Nath I wouldn't and I don't think anyone would argue; you're a better tournament player than me, better player overall for that matter. I'm not intending to come off as an authority on the this subject. I am intending to voice my opinion and back that opinion up.

To sum everything up No I wouldn't fold KK pf like Hank did, even if the guy flat out told me he had AA because I wouldn't believe him, and I think there's some considerations about table image if I fold in that spot, it's too weak tight for my liking. But I can't see how folding KK is bad when your opponent shows AA. Yes the pot odds, the pot odds, the pot odds. I'd refer you to page 202 of TPFAP, entitled You're Broke, You're Done. That's pretty much my thinking why take a slighty EV+ call if it means you stand a very good chance of being eliminated. Also no one had researched the hand I thought the hand occured later in the tournament when I really think you should avoid hands you are well behind in.

Also the advice I'm giving in this thread is WSOP FT/ME late stages specific. You're right I've never been to one of these, so it's alot like listening to Uncle Rico talk about how he'd of been playing in the NFL if his high school coach had started him etc.

You kinda made my point for me though, you've been to 1 WSOP FT. There's no guarantee you'll be back next year or the year after that. So the "advice" I'm giving takes that into consideration, it's not like a $109 tourney on Stars you make the FT of that, you wouldn't mind getting in with the worst of it so much, because you'll likely make it back to this FT before you do a WSOP FT.


Edit: also I don't disagree with Rizen's play at the FT just that play in particular, and I don't totally disagree with it, he's calling with likely the worst hand, but he does have the odds for the call and he's calling to eliminate another player from the table not facing elimination himself.

[THAY3R]

This thread is why I love tournies.

Especially live tournies.


ZOMG THIS IS MY ONLY TIME EVER DOING THIS TOURNEY I MUST NOT PLAY CORRECTLY

[Thundercat32]

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This thread is why I love tournies.

Especially live tournies.


ZOMG THIS IS MY ONLY TIME EVER DOING THIS TOURNEY I MUST NOT PLAY CORRECTLY

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TPFAP p.202

[mlagoo]

hahahaha

this thread is awesome


this thread is also why players like nath make a ridiculous amount of money in MTTs.



zomg tournament life yo!