Baseball HOF Results

[Jack of Arcades]

yeah, those four, I think, are my borderline, on the fence guys. it really helped that I didn't see any of them really play, I suppose.

Ordering them, best to worst:

Andre Dawson
Dave Parker
Jim Rice
Dale Murphy

[nolanfan34]

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Greg Jefferies 2 0.4

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Crap, time to let go of my Gregg Jeffries baseball cards, I guess. What a terrible investment!

[Hopey]

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What's keeping Dawson out? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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-He played the first 10 years of his career in Montreal, out of the spotlight.
-He never reached 500 homers (438)
-He never reached 3000 hits (2774)
-His lifetime BA is only .279
-His lifetime OBP is only .323
-He never had over 200 hits in a season
-He never played in the World Series, and only played in the LCS twice. He batted under .200 in the playoffs.

I'm a huge Dawson fan (I grew up in Montreal) and I hope he gets in. However, I think a lot of writers are buying into the theory that a player like Dawson is the line that separates HOF-calibre players from Very good non-HOF calibre players. Players with slightly better resumes than Dawson's will get in, those with slightly worse will stay out.

[Jack of Arcades]

Dawson is a borderline guy for me. Way too much time at RF with subpar offense. Not a very good on base guy. Plus he wasn't clutch. :P

[Hopey]

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Dawson is a borderline guy for me. Way too much time at RF with subpar offense. Not a very good on base guy. Plus he wasn't clutch. :P

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He had a cannon for an arm and was very quick when he was younger. However, playing on the rock-hard astroturf in Montreal killed his knees, and slowed him down for the last 1/2 of his career. A good portion of his career was spent playing hurt. Had he not spent so many years in Montreal, he might have reached 3000 hits and would have been a HOF shoo-in. Instead, he's close, but not quite good enough.

His numbers aren't quite as good as Jim Rice's numbers (and Rice played fewer years). So if Rice isn't able to get voted in, it's hard to make an argument for Dawson.

I wonder if Dawson would have gotten a little more consideration had he retired after the '93 season, as opposed to hanging in until '96? Playing those three extra years brought down his lifetime BA, SLG, and OBP. It also pushed back his eligibility 3 years, and square into the long-ball era. 1998 was the year of McGwire and Sosa's HR record race, but the long ball hadn't been cheapened as much as would come to be in subsequent years.

[utmt40]

For once I can see the light here that Dawson prolly did not deserve to get in based on numbers but he was still my first baseball card and thats good enough for me lol.

[THEOSU]

I have no data to back this up but...

I think if Dawson played on grass every day in his younger days he'd already be in the Hall. That turf just messed him up. Look at his career: he had four awesome years in Montreal and 4 very good years in five in Chicago, but there's this two year window in there - during his supposed peak - where he just wasn't very good. Enhance his numbers in those two seasons to levels even just below those of the seasons before, and that's all it may have taken to have him already in.

I know, I know, studies show that in baseball there have not been any long term effects due to Astroturf. If that's the case then 1) why are teams changing from Astroturf to other kinds of turf and 2) why are there stories like Andre Dawson?

[Hopey]

Yeah, that's my conclusion as well (that playing on turf will cost Dawson a trip to the HOF). Growing up in Montreal, I remember the stories about how Dawson's knees were constantly bothering him and hampering his production. He'd miss about 20 games a season in order to rest his knees, and wasn't 100% the rest of the time. When he left for Chicago, the thinking was that playing on grass would help extend his career. It seems to have worked -- not only did he play for another 10 years after leaving Montreal, but he won the MVP while in Chicago.

Another former Expo who will be on the ballot next year is Tim Raines. He'll get a few votes, but nowhere near enough to get in. He's another guy who was considered a potential future HOF'er during the heart of his career, but didn't quite put up the numbers when all was said and done. He finished with 2609 hits, and .294 BA, and a .385 OBP. He's 5th all-time in SB with 808. He was one of the best all-around players in MLB for about 6 years straight in the mid-80's, but got injured after going to the White Sox and was never the same after that. Had he had two more solid years, he would be getting a lot more consideration.

[ScottieK]

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Like it or not, the advent of the closer changed the way the game was played

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I agree with this in Sutter's case. Really dominant closers merit inclusion. That said, I can think of only one current closer who should be in the Hall, and he's starting to level off now.

Not sure how I feel about a closer's team results being brought to bear though. Would Rivera be worthy if he pitched for the Reds?

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I guess saves would be the #1 stat for a closer, instead of ERA. Rivera's got 379, 95% of all his save opportunities. That's pretty damned good. Yes, only dominant closers should be considered, and Sandman's one of the greatest of all-time. I guess if he were on the Reds, he wouldn't get as many save opportunities or playoff games (and exposure, World Series MVP and all that) but I think his percentage of saves would be about the same. If he doesn't get into the HOF, it would be a terrible travesty.

ScottieK

[THEOSU]

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Another former Expo who will be on the ballot next year is Tim Raines. He'll get a few votes, but nowhere near enough to get in. He's another guy who was considered a potential future HOF'er during the heart of his career, but didn't quite put up the numbers when all was said and done. He finished with 2609 hits, and .294 BA, and a .385 OBP. He's 5th all-time in SB with 808. He was one of the best all-around players in MLB for about 6 years straight in the mid-80's, but got injured after going to the White Sox and was never the same after that. Had he had two more solid years, he would be getting a lot more consideration.

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Tim Raines is my real benchmark for how intelligent HOF voters are. If Raines only gets like 20% of the vote, I officially give up.