Open Raise 10BB?

[KipBond]

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pokenum -h ac as - jd td - 7h 6h - 8h 8c - 9d 9c -- ah 9h 8d
Holdem Hi: 741 enumerated boards containing 8d Ah 9h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ac 196 26.45 545 73.55 0 0.00 0.265
Jd Td 156 21.05 585 78.95 0 0.00 0.211
7h 6h 288 38.87 453 61.13 0 0.00 0.389
8c 8h 64 8.64 677 91.36 0 0.00 0.086
9c 9d 37 4.99 704 95.01 0 0.00 0.050

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Very interesting. You are a 3:2 favorite heads-up against 7h6h. If you can get JT to fold, you're about even with 76 even with the other 2 people in the hand. This is a good example of when you want an opponent to play correctly under the FTOP (and fold). Very nice.

[Rottersod]

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pokenum -h ac as - jd td - 7h 6h - 8h 8c - 9d 9c -- ah 9h 8d
Holdem Hi: 741 enumerated boards containing 8d Ah 9h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ac 196 26.45 545 73.55 0 0.00 0.265
Jd Td 156 21.05 585 78.95 0 0.00 0.211
7h 6h 288 38.87 453 61.13 0 0.00 0.389
8c 8h 64 8.64 677 91.36 0 0.00 0.086
9c 9d 37 4.99 704 95.01 0 0.00 0.050

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Very interesting. You are a 3:2 favorite heads-up against 7h6h. If you can get JT to fold, you're about even with 76 even with the other 2 people in the hand. This is a good example of when you want an opponent to play correctly under the FTOP (and fold). Very nice.

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Yes. And this is why I chose this hand as an example of not knowing where you really are even if you flop a set of A, when there are 6 players in a 3xBB raised pot.

[Rottersod]

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You just don't want to see a 6-way flop with AA.

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Unless you flop a set. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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Sure. Flop is A98 with 6 players. Are you ahead or behind?

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Assuming no flushes, how can you not be ahead?

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And why would you assume no flushes?

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Because you didn't specify suits or give a qualifier such as "monotone flop" or "2-flush on the board."

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Yes, because the point I was trying to make was that with so many people in the hand cheaply you may not know where you really stand no matter what comes on the flop - even if you flop a set of A. I picked A98 and left it up to the readers to decide what the suits were. 3 of the same suit? 2 same suit? none? It all matters and you make decisions based on that. Some are easier than others. 3 suited is not quite as easy but I'd still rather have the set of A. The bet will be important though.

[KipBond]

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pokenum -h ac as - jd td - 7h 6h - 8h 8c - 9d 9c -- ah 9h 8d
Holdem Hi: 741 enumerated boards containing 8d Ah 9h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ac 196 26.45 545 73.55 0 0.00 0.265
Jd Td 156 21.05 585 78.95 0 0.00 0.211
7h 6h 288 38.87 453 61.13 0 0.00 0.389
8c 8h 64 8.64 677 91.36 0 0.00 0.086
9c 9d 37 4.99 704 95.01 0 0.00 0.050

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Very interesting. You are a 3:2 favorite heads-up against 7h6h. If you can get JT to fold, you're about even with 76 even with the other 2 people in the hand. This is a good example of when you want an opponent to play correctly under the FTOP (and fold). Very nice.

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Yes. And this is why I chose this hand as an example of not knowing where you really are even if you flop a set of A, when there are 6 players in a 3xBB raised pot.

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It's still a very easy push. You are at worst a 2:1 under dog, getting more than 2:1 if anyone calls (with the original stack/pot size scenario). If you get the 78 to fold his draw, you are in really good shape. If not, if you can get the JT (surely!) to fold, then you are in good shape. If nobody folds, you are still getting pretty good odds (5:1 pot odds as a 3.5:1 underdog).

[DesertCat]

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I had just bought in for $200 in a $1/$2 NL game. Got dealt AA. UTG raises to $20 ($150 behind). I'm in MP, I think about raising -- but I need to raise to $60, which is about 1/3 of my stack -- pot committing me no matter what the flop is. What do I do? I push. Button calls with QQ ($60). UTG folds. I win $80. I'm happy, but I'd like to actually play the game rather than pre-flop push.

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Pre-flop pushing is occasionally the game. UTG, a wild, loose, player, makes it $50 in a $5/$3 blinds game. All folds to me on the button, where I find AA. I make it $200, which would put him all in. He instantly calls with JJ. Dealer rolls out 5 cards, and I shake his hand as he heads home. I love 10x preflop raisers.

[Osprey]

At least with A-A and other big hands like Kings and maybe Queens your goal should be to get as much money in preflop as possible- for the guy who made the example of 1/3 of your stack in preflop with Aces- you've already won at that point, and you should not get away from the hand. Your equity edge is huge! If you can get 1/3 of your stack in every time with aces preflop, you'll make a huge amount of money. Your opponents will come nowhere near stacking you enough to make the money back that you're winning all the times that they don't flop good or you suck out and catch your 2 outers. In fact, if people are calling with real crap, you can make the arguement that you should reraise big with less than superpremium holdings as well- like say if people might call a big raise with A-J, you should probably be willing to move on them with Jacks. Easier said than done, but I've at least started making big raises and reraises with aces and kings when I play live.

[KipBond]

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...for the guy who made the example of 1/3 of your stack in preflop with Aces- you've already won at that point, and you should not get away from the hand.

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Should you just push all-in pre-flop then?

[Osprey]

Yes, obviously, if you think someone will call. But once you have 1/3 of your stack in with aces preflop, you should proceed to try to get all your opponents money in with the best mehtod you know how (ie, check raise flop, open push flop etc...)

[Cactus Jack]

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...for the guy who made the example of 1/3 of your stack in preflop with Aces- you've already won at that point, and you should not get away from the hand.

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Should you just push all-in pre-flop then?

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The object of no limit is to win stacks. If you push preflop and everyone folds, this doesn't accomplish the goal.

Preflop raising is a matter of adjustment. Some tables you can get one or two callers for $8, or $10. Sometimes you get callers at $12, but all (usually) fold for $15. It's a matter of finding the sweet spot.

Raising more with AA is foolish. You want someone or two to call you. Winning the blinds wastes a hand you won't get but maybe once a day. The only two hands to show a profit preflop are AA and KK. All others need some help. Don't try the profit away by being afraid of them getting cracked. It's a pair, and one hand. Big deal. But losing profit is a big deal.

So, even if you won a hand, you've lost possible profit.

*Most of the time you won't win much with AA or KK, but can lose a lot. You make most of your big profits on stealth hands that hit when you are in position. Those are the fun ones, and the ones the experts wait all day to get.*

[phil0pp]

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You just don't want to see a 6-way flop with AA.

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Unless you flop a set. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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Sure. Flop is A98 with 6 players. Are you ahead or behind?

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Assuming no flushes, how can you not be ahead?

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89 is suited, u have 67 of same suit. 15 outs= slight favorite