With deep stacks, I always fold top pair!

[Victorvdb]

Err final conclusion is I think you just got rivered by AQ and like the river fold. Dislike the turn check.

[THEOSU]

In thinking this over, I'm amazed at the number of players here who are saying, essentially, "All you beat is a bluff. He could be bluffing. Call."

It's true. It could be a bluff. It could be a simply horribly played AJ. Let's assume, for a second, that villain is competent (not always the safest assumption, of course) - that's just an awful couple of cards on the turn/river.

The more I read this hand and the arguments therein, I like how you played it, Ansky, and I'm a big fan of the disciplined fold. I don't know if I'd be able to make this fold, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be laid down.

[Sam T.]

Nice hand, sir.

The only thing I know about deep stack poker, is that I don't know much about deep stack poker. But I've spent enough time on the NL boards to realize that (like JJ) TPTK is not the nuts.

[Cactus Jack]

Ansky, this is a great one.

I love this hand, preflop, but hate it at the end. I think there are three ways of looking at it, and two are correct. As you played it, with the large reraise pre-flop, you are a lot more committed to playing it all the way to the end. It appears you were thinking that, then backed off.

Calling the raise pre-flop is one way to play this hand. It's early, you have no reads, so I prefer to trap rather than play strongly. AK is a big hand, but has to be improved. It's either a calling hand, for me, or a pushing hand, because you need to see all five cards to have the best chance of winning with it. As you have position, then it's easier to control the size of the pot, should you decide to not push, which I think is not the right play, better than pushing because it's early and you don't need to.

As you played it, I think you have to call the river. What can you beat? In my experience, probably anything he's got. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

How many times have you seen Ax here? How many times have you seen 66? Or JJ? That's why I now hate this hand at this point. I have NO idea what he's got. I think all you guys who are putting him on hands are overestimating the opponent. If this were on the bubble in an SNG, I'd put them on the higher range. At this point, no way can you be so sure.

In another thread criticizing Mike Caro's column, people are advocating aggressive play. Your play seems to be more in keeping with what he advocates and I see nothing wrong with that.

I can't fault you for not calling. You're still in it.

CJ

[Stipe_fan]

It is really hard to know what hands he would call your reraise with since you don't have a read on him.

The only hand he could possibly have that you could beat is AQo.

I am like you, I will never go down in a deep stack tournament with TPTK. Besides misplaying AK preflop, I feel TPTK is the mostly widely overplayed hand post flop.

Your type of bet on the flop is definitely a one shot and if you get called or raised you fold. Controlling the pot size so you can bet the turn and not become pot committed is the key. You need to bet T500 on the flop. I think you have to rep the flush on the turn by betting T1000. If you get called then shutdown.

His range of hands is definitely great. After you checked the turn, then I think you lose a handle on where you are at. He could have the flush, set or maybe two pair. I am leaning towards a set by the way the betting and board fell.

Ansk, if you had a flush you played it GREAT. But, you didn't so......!

My two cents,

Stipe_fan

[A_PLUS]

[ QUOTE ]

I am like you, I will never go down in a deep stack tournament with TPTK.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a mistake. Now, were you to say I wont always go down with TPTK, I would agree. Never? Come on.


[ QUOTE ]
Your type of bet on the flop is definitely a one shot and if you get called or raised you fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

AHHHHH.... Stop the madness!!!!

Stipe, take a step back and think about this. You just recomended, making a standard c-bet with TPTK, and folding to any further action, including a call. For one, you just turned AK when you hit TP into 23o. Two, it will take good aggressive players about 3 orbits to pick this up and exploit it mercilessly.

[ QUOTE ]

Controlling the pot size so you can bet the turn and not become pot committed is the key. You need to bet T500 on the flop. I think you have to rep the flush on the turn by betting T1000. If you get called then shutdown.


[/ QUOTE ]

I rarely plan my lines, so that I can fold on a later street. Your line just gave flush draws the right immediate odds to call, b/c you dont want to build a pot.


Look, I am all about discipline and not overplaying our hands, etc, etc. But, come on guys. We have a pair or Aces with a King kicker. That is a very good hand. Playing it as if it is bottom pair, is going to lose us a lot more chips than playing it like it is the stone cold nuts.

Playing this hand as weak as the OP suggests, will lose your entire stack, it will just take a few hands to do it.

Stipe, sorry for taking it out on you. No direspect, I think you are a very good player.

Also, I am also not sure about a call or fold in Ansky's post. I just wanted to stop the weak tight train before it drove us all straight to hell

[Holdemphile]

Ansky,

Maybe my analytical framework works better in cash games than tourneys. Strassa's post makes me think it's not such a bad way of thinking about calling these river bets from your opponents though. He suggested a larger raise preflop to about 700. In that scenario I would not even consider folding to the river bet. Doesn't that make the call alot easier (obviously the pot would be larger, and the situation a bit different)? You would face a tough decision if your opponent pushes preflop though. With stacks of 80-90 BB, you have to consider folding AK preflop against TAG opponents. The size of the pot preflop in this hand just happens to make the call a very difficult one. Don't you always have ask yourself, what would my opponent call a raise like that preflop with? If you're playing against Sam Farha, I guarantee he's pushing the river when he makes his bizarre, unpredictable, hand that has yours beat so that you are forced to pay him roughly the correct odds for him to make that call preflop. When your opponent doesn't push, I just want to be sure that he isn't properly rewarded.

Holdemphile

[rockin]

[ QUOTE ]
a flush/set/ 2 pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

i think you can safely exclude 2 pair from villains range at the turn, given the preflop action. villain playing A7s, A3s, A2s? possible, yes. likely, not so much.

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
The only hand he could possibly have that you could beat is AQo.


[/ QUOTE ]

The river would have given the villain two pair.

I agree that the hero MIGHT have been ahead on the turn, but by the river he's toast. I guess there are people who will play AJ this way, but I doubt they're still in the tournament at this point.

Villain could also have AK.

[A_PLUS]

[ QUOTE ]


I guess there are people who will play AJ this way, but I doubt they're still in the tournament at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the 1st 25 hands.