stars 2/4 me and enon disagree

[mike l.]

youre continuing with the hand so you might as well raise and overrepresent shiit

[mike l.]

why would you do that?

[Schneids]

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youre continuing with the hand so you might as well raise and overrepresent shiit

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
why would you do that?

[/ QUOTE ]


because QQ isn't that strong on this board vs two opponents and you're probably going to get 3-bet close to half the time (specifically because the guy already bet-3bet the flop, and still bet the turn).

I would be more inclined to raise when the pot is heads up, not 3-handed. The inclusion of 2 opponents means it's likely QQ is behind, and if it's ahead, then it's a fricken certainty like half the deck rivers you.

"Charging" draws isn't so important anymore in this pot because they're not folding and they aren't being charged much at all, and you're getting 3 bet a lot, so really, you're just charging yourself to draw.

[mike l.]

vmacosta was right, you are all ignoring the button. you need to raise

--to get the button out if possible
--because you might have the best hand
--to make draws pay or fold (and increase outs)
--to make the river easier to play by representing a monster (this should tame bb into going limp with something like 98)
--pot is getting big, good time to get aggro
--folding is wrong you might have a bazooka load of outs
--calling let's button animal and bb have their way with you it's too weak from a meta hand perspective
--raise raise raise
--did i say raise yet?

come at me im ready.

[mike l.]

what hands is sb 3 betting with confidence there? i think sb has a lot of 2 pair type hands that hate that turn card when raised. a raise also puts button under a lot of pressure what appears to be something like KQ, T9, or some sort of hand he got trapped with on the flop. the only hands sb is going to 3 bet are AJ, a set, and a flopped straight. and AJ is close. im assuming sb doesnt have T7 most of the time. flush draws and pairs with a T as well as J9s, 98s, are definitely likley though. what do you put hero's opponents on?

i think one of sb's most likely hands is KJ (or even JT) and he is sick of mark's laggy ways.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]

--to get the button out if possible

[/ QUOTE ]

He called two cold on the flop. He's not folding for 2 cold on the turn. He has to have a combo draw or already be crushing you now. It's simple hand range estimates. He's either got tons of outs vs you, or, he's now beating you.

[ QUOTE ]
--because you might have the best hand

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Unliiiiiiiiiiiiikely. Or if you do, your total equity is barely above 33% vs the two other hands. What type of hands bet-3bet the flop and bet the turn (usually huge hands or good hands with big draws)? What type of hands cold call preflop and cold call 2 more on the flop (likely a draw (say ace high flush draw, or something like JT/T9, etc), or a total QT type monster)?

[ QUOTE ]
--to make the river easier to play by representing a monster (this should tame bb into going limp with something like 98)

[/ QUOTE ]

irrelevent if you're behind. irrelevent if you're ahead. the river is damn easy to play when you call the turn, call the river -- how much easier can it be? Or when you raise on the turn, and then the river is a flush card, or the river is a 7, how does your turn raise make the river easier? I don't think this TYPE of board makes the river easier to play.

[ QUOTE ]
--pot is getting big, good time to get aggro

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This is a better argument if you change your hand to KK. Then you want KQ or Q-whatever to fold the gutshot.

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--folding is wrong you might have a bazooka load of outs

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Call. Call. Next hand.

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--calling let's button animal and bb have their way with you it's too weak from a meta hand perspective

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With this much action, if button raises, and BB 3-bets, you're crushed. Plain and simple. Then you fold and not lose sleep. If BB just calls a button raise then you call and re-evaluate on the river. Again, simple.

And what's this "weak metagame perspective" bs? There's no "good" or "bad" metagame, as long as you use what you are. If this hand is gonna make you look "weak," then, do other things to take advantage of your "weak" look. That might mean more call-call lines on the flop and turn with nothing and then they check fold to you on the river because you're "weak," or any of the dozens of other ways you use a "weak" image.

[stinkypete]

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--pot is getting big, good time to get aggro

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This is a better argument if you change your hand to KK. Then you want KQ or Q-whatever to fold the gutshot.


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i'm pretty sure you don't want to let that KQ call for 1 bet with his 7 outer, particularly considering that 4 of those outs will make it particularly expensive for you on the river.

[poker1O1]

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what hands is sb 3 betting with confidence there? i think sb has a lot of 2 pair type hands that hate that turn card when raised. a raise also puts button under a lot of pressure what appears to be something like KQ, T9, or some sort of hand he got trapped with on the flop. the only hands sb is going to 3 bet are AJ, a set, and a flopped straight. and AJ is close.

[/ QUOTE ]
Very interesting arguments for both calling and raising. I think the above excerpt is the strongest argument for either side so far. hope others will comment

[mikelow]

I think this is really close to a fold. What if villain holds A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]? Now it's down to three outs.

Make a crying calldown unless a non-club jack comes on the river.

[mikelow]

Just call this down.