stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

never played with SB in my life but hes like 45/25ish after like 100 hands

button, i think plays good HU, but is really bad 6 handed, hes the type who never ever folds his big blind no matter what and is fully capable of going completely animal postflop, but he dosent really matter in this hand

anyway, me and enon disagree on the turn play here, so help us out

PokerStars 200/400 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, hero does what?

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

Very close since you have to call a 3-bet if you raise, but I still vote for a raise. Then hope for a free showdown if you don't hit the straight.

My mind could change depending on the opponent. Who was SB?

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

My standard line is to calldown. I don't really want to get 3-4 bets in while drawing almost dead or give him the opportunity to push me out of the hand. At this level most people will follow through with a river bluff when they miss anyway so you still get the same amount imo while not risking as much.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

will his future 'animal' instincts be reduced if you just call down?

are you ahead here with any significant frequency if you get 3 bet and call down?

can you fold if you are 3 bet?

will he bet a worse hand again on the river?

i think you get what im saying [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]... this case all the evidence imo calls for a calldown and i dont see how you can advocate raising unless a) he is a complete spewtard that you've seen go 3 bets on the turn with a hand worse than (now) top pair) or b) he goes super passive on turn/river no matter the relative value of his hand.

i dont think raising is a spew, and lee knows im relatively more cautious than other high limit players, but id say the evidence here warrants more cautious action vs. the animal.

further considerations include that if he has a draw, AT or AcXc are now ahead of you and have you drawing to 5 outs in the first case and 4 outs in the second case, which you cannot fold to if you get 3 bet.

Barron

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

i think whether your preflop ranges are LAG (newhizzle) or nitty (enon) is relevant to what the correct turn play is, assuming your opponents are paying attention at all.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

I think its closer to a fold than a raise (not that I'd fold just saying which direction I lean when I call). If you do think its a raise (meaning you are ahead enough) I think it would be easier to play by capping the flop and getting a honest action if he still leads the turn.

-DeathDonkey

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think its closer to a fold than a raise (not that I'd fold just saying which direction I lean when I call). If you do think its a raise (meaning you are ahead enough) I think it would be easier to play by capping the flop and getting a honest action if he still leads the turn.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

And this leaves you in a sticky spot when he c/r's both of you on the turn as you're almost certainly behind, but probably have to call for your gutshot. FWIW as it probably doesn't happen all that often.

~AS

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think its closer to a fold than a raise (not that I'd fold just saying which direction I lean when I call). If you do think its a raise (meaning you are ahead enough) I think it would be easier to play by capping the flop and getting a honest action if he still leads the turn.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds right.

James

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

Most of the time I'd call if the turn was a red two, so, I guess I call here too.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the time I'd call if the turn was a red two, so, I guess I call here too.

[/ QUOTE ]

even with the button still to act behind you?

Not sure if everybody is ignoring that by accident or because you really think its irrelevant.