Doyles Fold Of QQ at the 50k Horse Final Table!

[ClonexxSA]

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Sorry, but thinking like this is absolutely naive and the sign of a first level player*. If Chip had "tells" like that or Doyle could draw conclusions about Chip's play from the past, then Chip would be not the great player he is. You can be sure that every player with patterns like that or easy to spot tells will go broke in the big game faster than anywhere else.

Therefore the only argument that I would accept is that Doyle made a percentage play here and countered the game theory based strategy of his opponent with a randomizing counter strategy of his own like folding in a tough spot whenever his first hole card was a heart.

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Yes yes, I am a horrible player, I am a "First Level Player" and have no clue what I am talking about.

Chip and Doyle couldn't possibly pick things up on each other after playing together for 20 years. How could that be possible? They are not humans, they are robots! They have zero tells and no one, especially not someone who has been watching this same player play for 20 years, could POSSIBLY get a feeling/notice something familiar or pick something up that told them their QQ was no good.

You are the naive one if you think that after playing together for that long that they can't possibly have an amazing feel for each other at the table. Without even adding all the time they have spent together, Doyle has insane instincts to begin with. Add that together with 20 years of watching someone and it adds up to the laydown we all saw.

[ClonexxSA]

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Well, this reaction is an obvious case of fanboism. If you love Doyle so much that you let him get away with everything and even suspect a great laydown if his teeth fall out on the table, I can't help you. Don't forget follow his example and lay down your own queens on such a flop. It will certainly make you a better player. I promise you, that you will never lose to a set that way...and not to kings either.

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You are a moron.

[ClonexxSA]

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You got me wrong. I don't blame Chip for his play, nor do I blame Doyle. Their problem was how to get out of this jam without making it look too obvious and they failed on that in my book.

"I knew you had some kind of pair...". Such a line may work in a game with some rich [censored] who pays 100k/hour to get lifted by a legend, but it hardly works if you flip a card over by accident. Too bad the second queen didn't become visible. I would make a bet on Bloch freaking out over it. Don't forget that he is the guy who noticed marked cards on a WSOP table already.

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Oh look, more retarded spewing.

Bloch guessed the other card to be an Ace, citing that QQ couldn't be laid down there. Cloutier chimed right in and said that Doyle sure as hell could lay them down if he "thought they was beat"....but he's in on it right? COLLUSION! COLLUSION!

[SleepOnIce]

Yeah it's obviously collusion. I mean, this random internet guy must play better than the best players in the world (since none of them can spot this obvious collusion, while he can). Also, we all know there is only 1 possible way to play every hand. Any other way is either wrong or cheating.

[limon]

...but there is more evidence against it. a couple hands later ivey folds aks pre-flop against reese. reese is notoriously tight, even greenstien says so and greenstien appears to be gibralter. ive seen many strange plays on tv amongst the big game guys many including ted forrest. your gut is to say ted/doyle/chip are colluding but then i think about my own homegame and some of the strange plays that are made. if one was looking at the holecards the plays would seem bizarre but the fact i have played a 500,000 hands w/ some of these guys makes certain reads a complete lock, this has to be true for the "big game" regulars as well.

[willie]

i was just as impressed w/ ivey tossing AKs w/ a ton of dead money in the pot.

[ClonexxSA]

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...but there is more evidence against it. a couple hands later ivey folds aks pre-flop against reese. reese is notoriously tight, even greenstien says so and greenstien appears to be gibralter. ive seen many strange plays on tv amongst the big game guys many including ted forrest. your gut is to say ted/doyle/chip are colluding but then i think about my own homegame and some of the strange plays that are made. if one was looking at the holecards the plays would seem bizarre but the fact i have played a 500,000 hands w/ some of these guys makes certain reads a complete lock, this has to be true for the "big game" regulars as well.

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This is what I am saying. I have played tons of hands with my home game regulars. That simple fact leads to situations where I don't specifically have some physical tell that screams "I HAVE KINGS!", but it does lead to situations where I make laydowns against some of the people I regularly play with that I would never make against most other players.

If there were hole card cams at my home game, some of the plays would look really strange and suspect. That is all we saw in the QQ vs. KK hand. I don't see why people can't understand that.

Occam's Razor, which I'm sure most of you are familiar with, basically states that the answer that makes the least assumptions and has the most facts is likely the correct one. So is it the fact that they have been playing together for so long and can get gut reads on one another, or is it some conspiracy theory collusion with no evidence whatsoever between Doyle and Chip?

If it was collusion, why would it even get to the flop where it cost Doyle more chips? Why wouldn't it have ended pre-flop, therefor saving Doyle those extra chips he tossed out on the flop?

The collusion theory, and even the softplaying theory, make no sense and have no basis in fact. The only answer left is that they know each other so well, they are able to make laydowns that other players couldn't possibly even fathom, let alone make.

[HOWMANY]

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The way Chip played the hand sent alarms off in Doyles head. It is very possible that Doyle has seen Chip play a hand like the that, EXACTLY like that, many times before.

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This is pretty obviously the answer. These guys are used to playing capped NL games with like 30-50ish big blinds, similar to most tournament situations. Just calling a raise with KK preflop isn't a bad play under these conditions since if there's a squeeze reraise behind you (seems extremely likely given the opposition in their cash games and this final table), you can push (or call and get it all in on the flop) and your opponent will be committed and the guy with KK won't have really made a mistake whether he wins or loses, as he let someone else put in most of the chips and if he gets outdrawn, oh well, he was a favorite when the majority of the money went in.

[Shandrax]

I don't know what sort of player you are, but your thought process explains a lot. If in fact Chip had a "tell" like that or if every single raise of his means that he has the nuts, he would not be the winning player he is. His play could be easily exploited and he would go broke in no time.

[GHAND]

everyone knows a min raise equals monster. Standard laydown.