Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?

[Avgard]

I can't tell what you saying in response to my post. My post had nothing to do with fearing elimination. It is question whether pot odds always dictate your action in a hand.

No money invested in the pot and you are getting 4 to 1, are your dueces good enough and you push or do you fold?

[Mi_T_Sharp]

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I can't tell what you saying in response to my post. My post had nothing to do with fearing elimination. It is question whether pot odds always dictate your action in a hand.

No money invested in the pot and you are getting 4 to 1, are your dueces good enough and you push or do you fold?

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It wasn't even really in response to your post specirfically. I have just been reading way too much results oriented survival type thinking lately and I had to vent.

[Rottersod]

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i specifically remember reading cardplayer's update on the hand and that there were a few posts on here that added up the raises/reraises/stack sizes, etc. and showed he was definitely getting better than 4:1.

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If you can find those I'd like to see it. Was it preflop or post? If it was post then he'd need a lot more than 4-1 to call since he was probably at least 10-1 against, worse if his suits were counterfeited. If it was pre then what were the stacks and would it have put him all in to call or did he cover the other guy?

[NicksDad1970]

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I don't know anything about the hand, but say I have 10k stack and get 6k+ in with KK, and I'm put all in, I'm not folding for my last 4k even if he flips up his AA. He's getting correct odds even if the op has the ONLY hand that beats him. As someone said before, I bet at least 10% of the time he doesn't have aces, and it is THAT point that makes the call manditory.

I'll love to see your longterm winnings if you continually fold in pots getting good odds even though you think you might not have the best hand...

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I agree with you 100%. There are many times I feel confident that I'm beat but the odds say call and I do.

I'm only saying there have been times where I know I'm smoked. But I have odds to call, and I fold. Now usually that thought only pops in my head if my tournament life is at stake. If I have a decent stack I'll call with 2-7os if I have the odds and put my opponent on AK suited.

To me there's sometimes when you need to know the math but not go with it. I am NOT a pro. Maybe playing like that I'd never be one.

There have been times I've folded and people were like WTF no matter what you had you should have called, and I come back to win the whole thing.

I've also been a chip leader by more than 2x what the next chip leader had with 15 left and not made the final table.

[Thundercat32]

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He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces, so it was an awful fold.

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not commenting on this specific play because i know nothing of the variables.
however this comment that he had the correct odds to call even if he knew his opponent had AA is fallacious.

this isn't a cash game and so pot odds are not the sole consideration when making a decision as one cannot rebuy and take advantage of the "long term".

i don't play many tournaments but i do know that a fundemental theory of tournament poker is that it is often times correct to pass on a marginal situation if it will prevent you from taking advantage of a much larger edge later on.

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Thank God someone said it, I've been losing my mind lately listen to players talk about getting the right pot odds to call with the worst hand in tournament play, even at WSOP FTs. I respect Rizen a lot as a player, but even he said this on last Tuesday's ESPN coverage he knew he had the worst hand but said he priced himself into the pot.

You need to have other considerations than pot odds in tournament play especially in the latter stages of a tournament. At the final table pot odds are nearly worthless when you know you have the worst hand. It's not like you're going to be at a WSOP FT next week (possible exception Jeff Madsen) but heck you might not make it back for ten years or ever. I really think this is a critical error in thinking.

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Well, you're wrong. Not much else I can say.

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Right before your response is another post about "longterm" winnings.

So tell me how many WSOP FTs have you been to? When you get to one throw all the cash game pot odds stuff out the window. If I think I'm beat I'm laying it down, because every chip is so valuable I'm not putting it in when I don't think I have the best hand (or obviously a very good drawing hand). Those chips that I save will increase my FE, allow me to survive more orbits, and I also may get dealt AA the next hand, I'd rather save those chips for a spot I'm more likely to be ahead.

[Mi_T_Sharp]

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So tell me how many WSOP FTs have you been to? When you get to one throw all the cash game pot odds stuff out the window. If I think I'm beat I'm laying it down, because every chip is so valuable I'm not putting it in when I don't think I have the best hand (or obviously a very good drawing hand). Those chips that I save will increase my FE, allow me to survive more orbits, and I also may get dealt AA the next hand, I'd rather save those chips for a spot I'm more likely to be ahead.

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I would fold AA if I was at the WSOP ME FT.

I mean, you don't really want to risk getting them cracked and then losing a shot at winning 12 million dollars, do you?
It's too big of a risk to take. At best you are only an 80% favorite to win. So, 20% of the time you will lose and not get 12 million. It's just too much to risk.

[Thundercat32]

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So tell me how many WSOP FTs have you been to? When you get to one throw all the cash game pot odds stuff out the window. If I think I'm beat I'm laying it down, because every chip is so valuable I'm not putting it in when I don't think I have the best hand (or obviously a very good drawing hand). Those chips that I save will increase my FE, allow me to survive more orbits, and I also may get dealt AA the next hand, I'd rather save those chips for a spot I'm more likely to be ahead.

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I would fold AA if I was at the WSOP ME FT.

I mean, you don't really want to risk getting them cracked and then losing a shot at winning 12 million dollars, do you?
It's too big of a risk to take. At best you are only an 80% favorite to win. So, 20% of the time you will lose and not get 12 million. It's just too much to risk.

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You think I'm Rhett Butler some tight @ss that won't get in any pots, I'm NOT advocating that.

I think you're Richard Lee some gung ho maniac that refuses to listen to the evidence being presented to you in the hand and isn't going to get pushed around when you have a big hand like JJ even when it's fairly clear that your opponent has an overpair.

Oh and just for a refresher course on my part who made more money at this year's FT Rhett or Richard?

[Topnoevili]

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He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces, so it was an awful fold.

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not commenting on this specific play because i know nothing of the variables.
however this comment that he had the correct odds to call even if he knew his opponent had AA is fallacious.

this isn't a cash game and so pot odds are not the sole consideration when making a decision as one cannot rebuy and take advantage of the "long term".

i don't play many tournaments but i do know that a fundemental theory of tournament poker is that it is often times correct to pass on a marginal situation if it will prevent you from taking advantage of a much larger edge later on.

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Thank God someone said it, I've been losing my mind lately listen to players talk about getting the right pot odds to call with the worst hand in tournament play, even at WSOP FTs. I respect Rizen a lot as a player, but even he said this on last Tuesday's ESPN coverage he knew he had the worst hand but said he priced himself into the pot.

You need to have other considerations than pot odds in tournament play especially in the latter stages of a tournament. At the final table pot odds are nearly worthless when you know you have the worst hand. It's not like you're going to be at a WSOP FT next week (possible exception Jeff Madsen) but heck you might not make it back for ten years or ever. I really think this is a critical error in thinking.

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so awesome.

[Mi_T_Sharp]

C'MON MAN. Richard Lee called off his entire 15 million chip stack after raising to 1 million w/ JJ (edit: well he didn't call it off but you know what I mean). It's a completely different situation altogether than the OP.

You don't fold KK in that spot getting 4:1. That is all.

[Thundercat32]

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C'MON MAN. Richard Lee called off his entire 15 million chip stack after raising to 1 million w/ JJ. It's a completely different situation altogether than the OP.

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Just so you understand I'm not some Pu$$y unwilling to play poker like Rhett Butler, but I'm going to do everything in my power to stay alive at a WSOP FT or late stages of the ME and not get in dominated even if that means laying down KK preflop.

For the record I've never laid down KK preflop in any cash game or tournament and would find it extremely hard to do so, but I'm going to the leave the door open as a possibility that one day I might do it, and if it's at the FT of a WSOP event, I won't give two craps about pot odds, I'd be much more inclined to think about what the next payout increase will be.

Also here is a post from the MTT forum a couple weeks ago about folding KK in the Borgata ME, it's a pretty good example of time to consider folding KK preflop IMO
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...3006&page=