DN loses respect for Raymer

[Peter McDermott]

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And it is true that you can't become famous if the WPT (or the WSOP, the only significant alternative) isn't allowed to put your face on TV. Of course, this statement is meaningless. We're not trying to take away the ability of the WPT to put the players on TV. We're trying to take away their ability to force us to sign away the use of our name and image forever for no compensation, if we wish to play in these events.


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I've just finished reading Horsemen of the Esophagus: Competitive Eating and the Big Fat American Dream and it seems that there's a really interesting parallel between the two cases.

The field of Competitive Eating is heavily dominated by the International Federation of Competitive Eaters (IFOCE). Most of the events that they host are only open to their members, who are usually under contract to them. It's actually owned and run by a big NY PR company, who maintain really tight control over the people that they have a contract with.

The alternative is the much smaller Association of Independent Competitive Eaters who resent the power of the major league, and struggle against its control at every turn.

It seems to me that there are some really interesting parallels here, and who knows, if the poker thing doesn't actually pan out for you, there's always another form of competition you could try your hand at? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Zetack]

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I think your understanding of the law is very poor. There is no way that WPT can market a videogame of 'HU against Raymer' without Raymer's explicit permission (and profit sharing). The agreement they signed merely allowed WPT to use snippets of these guys during the tournament to advertise their program, much as they do now.

I don't know too much about this lawsuit, but the release they're asked to sign is actually pretty standard in many areas. And in no way does such a release give carte-blank permission for the other party to exploit your image in some unrelated product.

I'm no lawyer but I think I know American law well enough to know the example you posed as being just silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually if you read the release it's seems to say exactly the opposite of what you are saying.
From what I can see (in bold text) they can put your picture on anything they like.


1) Grant of Rights. Player acknowledges that WPT Enterprises, Inc. and its successors, assigns and licensees (collectively, “WPT”) will be recording, filming, photographing and exploiting films and/or television specials or other audio visual works of and/or about the Tour Event (jointly and severally the “Programs”). Player consents to such filming and exploitation of the Programs, and hereby irrevocably grants to WPT the right to film, record, edit, reproduce and otherwise use Player's name, photograph, likeness, signature, biographical information, appearance, actions (including, without limitation, revealing Player's hole cards), conversations (including, without limitation, “behind the scenes” footage and filmed interviews with Player) and/or voice (the “Recordings”) in, and in connection with, the Programs and/or the “World Poker Tour” and in connection with the distribution, advertising, publicizing, exhibition, and exploitation thereof and of other audio-visual works (including, without limitation, “behind the scenes” productions and public service announcements) and any and all derivative, allied, subsidiary and/or ancillary uses related thereto (including, without limitation, merchandising, commercial tie-ins, publications, home entertainment, video games, commodities, etc.), in whole or in part, by any and all means, media, devices, processes and technology now or hereafter known or devised in perpetuity throughout the universe.

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Its an incredibly broad release, but it may not grant the WPT the rights to use somebody's image for just anything, depending on how several of the Defined Terms above are actually defined. We'd want to know how "World Poker Tour" is defined.

Unless the definitions are more expansive, as I read it, they could indeed put out a WPT presents Heads up Versus Greg Raymer video game, but they might not be able to sell his likeness to coke to promote minute maid or something.

The key phrases to look at are "and of other audio-visual works" and "any and all derivative, allied, subsidiary and/or ancillary uses related thereto"

In the context it may that these are related to the "Programs" and the "World Poker Tour" and not any and all uses whatsoever. That's still a lot of territory however.

--Zetack

[NicksDad1970]

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Greg-

What you seem to be missing is evident in this analogy. First, the bully is only bullying less than 50 poker players. The online card affects hundreds of thousands. Thus it shouldn't be surprising that a large amount of people could agree with Daniel and not be a shill for the WPT.

Secondly, the bully hasn't bullied anyone yet. The whole issue is that they could hypothetically bully you. To this point, the amount of income lost to this point as a result of the current release (as I understand it) is negligible at best. You're fighting for what they could potentially do against you.... and since you're risking the online card just for a hypothetical, it seems like something understandbly the poker community as a whole will and should be against.

You are correct that they have no legal basis to bring up the online card. The problem is that isn't how the media or someone from the outside looking in will see it. This is bad press, and this industry simply doesn't need any bad press at all at this time.

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This is the best post in the thread.

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My first thoughts were that I thought it was BS that 7 people were suing (IMHO at that time) for all poker players.

Since then I feel like I did when watching the OJ case. When the prosecution was up I was like OJ is GUILTY! Then the defense would talk and I'd be like maybe he's not.

Even though this case won't change 99.9% of any poker players life. If it ever did then it could really affect it.

I'm a perfect example. I've never played in a 10K WPO event. I've played in a 500 buy in one though. Had I won it, or had a big cash I would have ponyed up the 10k for the main event.

Then it could change everything. If in fact the release says they can use your likeness for anything. I mean we're talking about a small chance anything like that could happen.

Someone earlier brought up a good example. What if Raymer spent a bunch of time and money for a poker DVD only to have the WPT release something similar 2 weeks prior to his coming out?

Or what if you totally trusted the powers that be at the WPT to not use your likeness for anything, only for them to sell out to someone else who will screw you blind? That would be one heck of a selling point to say that you have releases signed by 99 of the top 100 players. Where you can use their likeness to sell anything from diet pills to butt paste.

[Zetack]

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[
Or what if you totally trusted the powers that be at the WPT to not use your likeness for anything, only for them to sell out to someone else who will screw you blind? That would be one heck of a selling point to say that you have releases signed by 99 of the top 100 players. Where you can use their likeness to sell anything from diet pills to butt paste.

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The Greg Raymer Butt Paste. Holy Shyte!

The mind boggles (or shudders, in my particular case).

--Zetack

[Greg (FossilMan)]

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Or what if you totally trusted the powers that be at the WPT to not use your likeness for anything, only for them to sell out to someone else who will screw you blind? That would be one heck of a selling point to say that you have releases signed by 99 of the top 100 players. Where you can use their likeness to sell anything from diet pills to butt paste.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Greg Raymer Butt Paste. Holy Shyte!

The mind boggles (or shudders, in my particular case).

--Zetack

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, even if they can, you know they're not going to use me for the diet pills.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Greg (FossilMan)]

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Greg,

Has the WPT filed its answer yet? And do you have a link to the answer?

I'm a lawyer and very interested in this lawsuit. I've only heard third or fourth-hand the objections to the lawsuit, and so far really don't understand them. I simply don't grasp how this could threaten poker for anyone. Is the concern merely that ANY litigation concerning poker somehow will make courts take a closer look at its legality?

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Go to our website at wptlawsuit.com, and you can see all the public documents there.

Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[RJT]

Um, my guess is he graduates law school in 2007. Ergo, he would be starting his third year of law school.

[fallen]

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Or what if you totally trusted the powers that be at the WPT to not use your likeness for anything, only for them to sell out to someone else who will screw you blind?

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This for me is the key point that I think DN is missing when he is bashing the suit. He believes (rightly or wrongly) that the current owners of the WPT will not use the players rights in an inapporiate manner.

However who knows what future owners may do. They may not be on such friendly terms with DN. This is something he should think about.

People should also remember that if the WPT goes under & they are forced to sell their assets that the rights they have over the famous players who have signed this release will be worth a lot of money & I can see many companies having an interest in getting such rights on the cheap.

Still none of this matters to me as the rights to my image are worth about 2 cents at the moment [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[olivert]

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Tonight I had a conversation with a very knowledgeable and famous poker player whose name I won't mention. We both have the same opinion. The WPT is going down. ESPN will simply crush them. In fact, we think, and I think I stated this to you over a year ago, that ESPN will eventually crush most of the other shows. Of course that's just my opinion, but I would be curious to know if you agree, and if you do, in a sense the WPT will eventually then lose this suit even if they win.


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Mason:

You are forgetting about the "global picture".

While it is true that WPTE is losing ground, and losing ground quickly, in the U.S. TV poker market to NBC Heads-Up, the WSOP on ESPN, and even some of the "time buy" TV poker shows, WPTE has much bigger fish to fry in the "global" poker market.

WPTE no longer markets itself as a TV poker producer.

Instead, WPTE now markets itself as a start-up ONLINE POKER business that is regrouping to launch "version 2" in the 2nd quarter of 2007, after "version 1", which primarily targeted the United Kingdom market, failed due to both business and technical issues.

Furthermore, WPTE is moving quickly to establish beach heads in the East Asian markets, where Harrah's is currently unable to get the WSOP onto television due to a dispute between ESPN and News Corporation Limited (NewsCorp), and where Harrah's currently has ZERO presence on the ground with no casino projects in development (that could change).

NewsCorp, not ESPN, manages ALL ESPN-branded TV networks in all of Asia except Japan and the Middle East via the Singapore-based ESPN STAR Sports (ESS) joint venture.

Until Harrah's is able to resolve the dispute between NewsCorp and ESPN over the broadcast of the WSOP in East Asia, the WSOP will NOT air on any ESS-managed ESPN-branded network.

(The Sumitomo Group manages the J SPORTS joint venture in Japan on behalf of ESPN, NewsCorp, Sony, Fuji, Liberty Media, and Tokyo Broadcasting. The WSOP will air in Japan on J sports ESPN.)

WPTE has been on TV in South Korea and the Philippines since the 4th quarter of 2004.

WPTE has just signed TV distribution deals in two predominately Chinese-speaking markets, Macau and Singapore, where American-style mega-resort casinos with poker rooms are being built.

WPTE's alliance with MGM MIRAGE will allow WPTE to hold its first WPT stop in East Asia when the MGM Grand Macau opens in the 4th quarter of 2007.

(Macau, while technically is now part of China, still operates with its own set of laws and will maintain its own currency until December 2049.)

Furthermore, MGM MIRAGE is allied with Macau gambling kingpin Stanley Ho and his daughters Pansy and Angela.

Pansy is a 50% partner in MGM Grand Macau, while Angela runs the offshore online gaming site DrHo888.com.

I expect the WPTE-MGM MIRAGE-Ho Family alliance to move quickly in their efforts to lobby the Chinese government to grant WPTE an EXCLUSIVE concession license to operate a real money online poker business serving Mainland China, where the Chinese government has the ability to block all unlicensed internet poker traffic via state-controlled internet "choke points".

If WPTE and its allies were successful in getting an exclusive online poker concession license to operate in Mainland China, thereby forcing all online poker players in Mainland China to play exclusively on WPTOnline.com and qualify via satellite exclusively to the "WPT World Championship", then WPTE will wrestle control of the global poker industry away from the likes of PartyPoker, Full Tilt, Mansion, bwin/OnGame (PokerRoom.com/EuroPoker) and Harrah's.

The Chinese government, while it has relaxed travel rules for its citizens to overseas destinations, still has the ability to deny an exit visa to a Chinese citizen. For example, the Chinese government has the ability to block any Mainland Chinese online poker player from traveling to Las Vegas to play the WSOP Main Event if the Chinese government were to grant WPTE a monopoly.

China will be the next "disruptive" event to take place in the poker industry, as the Mainland Chinese market has 4 times as many people compared to the U.S.

Chinese gamblers, in general, are prized by the gaming industry because they are ultra-loose, ultra-agressive, and are willing to bet on almost any game, whether it is Blackjack, Baccarat, Horse Racing, Greyhound Racing, the lottery, or betting on English Premier League soccer matches.

There is no reason to believe that Texas Hold'em will NOT sell in the Chinese-speaking markets once it is introduced via television.

(The Japanese gambler in general is the complete opposite, as he is likely to play Pachinko exclusively.)

While the battle for the poker market, both online and TV, in the U.S. is effectively over at this point due to market saturation, the REAL battle, for a majority share of poker revenue around the world by the year 2015, hasn't really begun yet because the "Battle for China" is looming on the horizon.

[NicksDad1970]

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Or what if you totally trusted the powers that be at the WPT to not use your likeness for anything, only for them to sell out to someone else who will screw you blind? That would be one heck of a selling point to say that you have releases signed by 99 of the top 100 players. Where you can use their likeness to sell anything from diet pills to butt paste.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Greg Raymer Butt Paste. Holy Shyte!

The mind boggles (or shudders, in my particular case).

--Zetack

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Well, even if they can, you know they're not going to use me for the diet pills.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

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Seriously though Greg, what if you did lose some weight and then they do sell some diet pill with you on the bottle? Oh wait, you and I seem to agree.