Do poker players look at rake and tipping in an unrealistic way?

[JJNJustin]

I know many old timers in Detroit who used to play in and operate backroom games before there were any casinos or poker rooms here. They tell me that the standard rake was 5-10% with no maximum. A $200 pot standard for a $10-$20 game would be raked $20. And these were backroom games that could get robbed, raided, or cheated and werent hardly as juicy as the casino games. And yet they still played because there was no internet and unless they wanted to fly to Vegas or AC that's all there was.

I played (unknowingly) in a game where the rake was 10% no maximum for a few hours. F--- that.

From the standpoint of the oldtimers, casino poker is really a deal. They get protection, good action, plenty of players, different games, different limits, cocktail service, some comps, and the rake is still cheaper than what they used to pay.

I, myself, living in Detroit and playing primarily limit poker at the casino have pay the highest rake in the country ($5 max and $6 max at MCC + $1 bad beat). When I play limit I'm usually not winning 3 pots an hour, it's more like 1 pot every two hours. I play very tightly in these games and let the other fish at the table throw their money back and forth and feed the rake. Many people say that you are paying $15 an hour regardless, on the average, but I disagree. I would imagine that the good solid player who is playing fairly tightly is not necessarily getting ass-raped by the high rake, but the loose fish who calls on every hand is paying more than their fair share.

I would play NL in Detroit, and my no-limit game is not very strong, but the reason is the players are just horrible. But there is a time charge rather than a rake, and the dealers and players are so painfully slow. As tight as I play I feel I am better off playing in a raked game limit game. The players there are just as bad and the house doesnt get as much of my profits.

What makes me sort of angry, though, is that MCC always has these short handed games w/o must move tables, so you are paying the same rake on a short table which starts to get you. They wont reduce the rake, either, (they will, but on the condition you lose the bad beat jackpot possibility. Fish never agree to this, so it never happens). When tables get short, I ask to combine tables. If they wont, I simply get up and stop playing.

There are alot of home games around, too, where noboby is taking any rake because they mistakingly think this makes the game legal. Regardless, as long as I know a few people in the game, I try to round these as much as I can.

I just wanted to add the idea that guys in Detroit were paying much higher than $5 max in the past. It seems to be tradition here in Detroit to charge fairly high rake to play. But to the old timers who were used to paying 10% no max, it's peanuts.

-J

[luckychewy]

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last night i played some 6/12 and told the dealer that if i won the pot she was getting 10%. of course i cracked AA with my T9o and she got $30. i guess there is no point to this post other than to say that i am great.

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ok so how hot was she? 8?

[tolbiny]

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Tipping poker dealers is basically the same thing.


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I view it as very different from a waiter/waitress. The server industry in general gets payed a minimum wage of $2.11-$2.34 per hour and they are expected to make a reasonable wage with tips. (at a typical applebees type this usually works out to 12-14$ per hour in tips). As far as i know most dealers get well over the minimum wage as base pay and then get (i am guessing) 10-30$ more an hour in tips while dealing.
I would also venture to say that a dealer has an easier job than a server.

[ellenwheels]

I've done both and dealing is only easier on the feet. Servers get minimum wage the same as dealers in some states. When I was a server in FL I got less but in CA it's the same. Dealers also mostly get minimum wage. After you've been with a company you might get an extra few cents. Or if you work at Orleans I think you get an extra buck (hazard pay NOT ENOUGH).

[Easy E]

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<font color="blue"> Well, if you're going to compare a multi-employee business with a self-employed entity, I don't see what your point is. </font>

Even a self-proprietorship has many of the issues I mentioned. Also, there is a self-employment tax that OP does not mention, which is significant.

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And I never said it wouldn't be- I believe it's in the 15-30% range?

<font color="red">-1 </font>

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<font color="blue"> And any $30 "pro" who can't handle health insurance and other living expenses at $1250-1500 a week should realign their expenditures with their income.
</font>

Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter. You're assuming everyone cheats on their return! Or are you really naive enough to think most 15-30 pros net $1500 a week after taxes?

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<font color="red">-10 </font> for reading anywhere in my reply where I refer to net after taxes
<font color="red">-30 </font> for making the bizarre assumption that I assumed anything on cheating on taxes.


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<font color="blue"> And any $30 "pro" </font>

And it's " "$15 pro" please. OP makes no mention of $30-$60. You fail...

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I didn't realize that pros labeled themselves by the lower number. I failed on that one.. but not as badly as you did overall.

Just so you don't miss the point again- anyone bringing in $63-75,000 ($25-30 an hour, 50 hours a week, 50 weeks at $15/30) from poker who can't budget around that income is either an idiot, playing at the wrong level for his/her expenses, or is wrong about what they're grossing from the tables.

When someone uses the "1bb/hour" rule, I always assume that the number is gross profit from the table, with rake and tipping and immediate game-related expenses already removed. If that assumption is incorrect, you may enlighten me with more accurate figures.

[Clarkmeister]

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When someone uses the "1bb/hour" rule, I always assume that the number is gross profit from the table, with rake and tipping and immediate game-related expenses already removed. If that assumption is incorrect, you may enlighten me with more accurate figures

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You are correct. You can see it in how I did my math in the original post.

Also, the 1BB/hr rule is pretty antiquaited, especially at the lower limits since the advent of TV. Anyone who can't easily exceed 1BB/hr is either in a bad game, not really good at poker, or both.

[Easy E]

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Also, the 1BB/hr rule is pretty <font color="blue">antiquated</font>, especially at the lower limits since the advent of TV. Anyone who can't easily exceed 1BB/hr is either in a bad game, not really good at poker, or both.

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I assumed as much, but even going by the ~1BB rule, it should work if you budget carefully. Not much of a living, but there are far lower SOL and worse jobs out there.

[i]sorry about the <font color="blue">nit</font>, but I don't want Lestat whining about favouritism

First off, I agree that tipping, for a strong winning player, comes with the territory in most cases and is not that huge a deal in that player's whole picture.

However, most winning casino players don't win anywhere near $40/hr. long-term in live $15/30 games. Even most $15/30 casino pros don't do nearly that well.

I gather that you're an extremely talented player, Clarkmeister. Lumping most pros into a category that considers you as the average would be very misleading.

For a really strong winning pro, tipping is not that huge a deal; you're right about that--and for the really strong winning player, poker is a good return on investment in the self-employed business sense.

But...for many players who are sort of struggling at being pro (and there are, and have always been, a LOT of them), it is a big deal. If a $15/30 casino pro makes $20/hr. instead of $40, it is a big deal to tip $3 per hour. If they choose not to tip those dealers who don't even try to give good service (and there are quite a number of them), I don't blame them. If they choose to tip only on decent-sized pots, I don't blame them. For that matter I don't have a problem with any player not tipping those dealers who don't even try to make an effort to do a good job, or with those players who don't tip on smallish pots.

For marginally winning pros, small expenses affect their bottom lines proportionately far more than for really strong pros like yourself. Maybe they should be doing something else for a living, but it's their choice. Things like tipping a "little less" or "little more"; whether they get the cheapest eats at the casino or go for a nicer (but not top line) meal; whether they put in 35 hours per week or 55 hours per week--these things can make or break them in the long run. And that actually applies to most of the "pros" out there.

People on this forum, and in some books and articles, bandy about win rates like 1.5 bb/100 hands online and 1.5 big bets per hour live in Limit Hold'Em as if these are the norm or something for winning players. That's very far from the case, and very unrealistically optimistic. Yes there are many players who have done that recently in the poker explosion, but there are many more winning players who win much less. Just because a lot of players have won a lot recently, does not suggest that most winning players, or even most pros, are winning a lot.

Another factor in some places is the shared tip situation, especially if it is shared with the whole casino. This is a terrible system which penalizes the good dealers, rewards the bad dealers and those who don't make an effort, and makes it less meaningful to personally tip when you win a pot, as your tip may be split up amongst what--5,000 dealers for the shift, maybe? So if you tip $5,000 dollars over the course of the year (which is not hard to do), each dealer in the poker room might end up with $1 from you for the entire year (before taxes). Great freakin' system! (sarcasm), but that may be worthy of another thread which I don't feel like starting now.

[tom10167]

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[ QUOTE ]
Tipping poker dealers is basically the same thing.


[/ QUOTE ]

I view it as very different from a waiter/waitress. The server industry in general gets payed a minimum wage of $2.11-$2.34 per hour and they are expected to make a reasonable wage with tips. (at a typical applebees type this usually works out to 12-14$ per hour in tips). As far as i know most dealers get well over the minimum wage as base pay and then get (i am guessing) 10-30$ more an hour in tips while dealing.
I would also venture to say that a dealer has an easier job than a server.

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I make four dollars and twenty five cents an hour as a dealer.

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When someone uses the "1bb/hour" rule, I always assume that the number is gross profit from the table, with rake and tipping and immediate game-related expenses already removed. If that assumption is incorrect, you may enlighten me with more accurate figures

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct. You can see it in how I did my math in the original post.

Also, the 1BB/hr rule is pretty antiquaited, especially at the lower limits since the advent of TV. Anyone who can't easily exceed 1BB/hr is either in a bad game, not really good at poker, or both.

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The 1BB/hr. for live games was not a rule or "rule of thumb" but rather a winning rate for the really good (but not truly great) pros. Even back before TV and before internet poker got so popular, most pros made substantially less. To win 1BB/hr. in Limit Hold'Em year after year you had to be really, really good (say 10 or more years ago).

We don't hear too much about the failure or hard times stories from pros who have run bad. Some pros have won for years and never run really bad for say 6 months live. Kudos to Dynasty for posting his update a while back. For every Dynasty who plays well but runs bad for some months straight, there are many, many more we never hear of. And if someone talented and disiplined like Dynasty can run bad for months, how long can a player a bit less talented and a little less disciplined run bad???

Even Ed Miller has seemed to be suggesting that ppl are winning what-200K per year?-all over the place, or that pulling money out of your Party account to go to the WSOP is a natural thing to do, no problem. My response is that yes the games are good but we don't hear much about the losers or those pros that are just getting by and may be in jeopardy of going broke if they hit an extended bad run.

Have you ever run really bad in live play for over three months straight, Clarkmeister? How about for 6 months? If it can happen for 3 months, it can happen for 3 months again, back to back, = 6 months.

Yes, I agree that a good player should be able to win about a BB/hr. or maybe somewhat more playing live limit hold'em in today's games. Should. Many won't, though.