Debate: Teachers Wages

[hmkpoker]

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If given the choice between paying $400 for a night out at the local arena with the kids, or paying an extra $400 taxes to upgrade the wages of the teachers of their kids (and presumably the quality of the teachers as a result), most will probably pick the sport event.

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Yes, because most will see it as a choice between spending $400 on $400 worth of entertainment, vs. spending $400 on nothing.

Now, if that $400 went directly to their kid's education, suddenly things are a little different.

[Copernicus]

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There should be no argument that teachers contribute a great deal to society. Teachers shape the leaders of tommorow. Sports athletes well they entertain us...but their overall contributions to society are much less. Therefore the extreme pay grade differential just seems ridiculous.

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If teachers do contribute so much to society (I"m not argueing with you, I believe they do) then they should have no problem getting paid a good salary by private schools.

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and yet private school pay is lower than publics.

[ShakeZula06]

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There should be no argument that teachers contribute a great deal to society. Teachers shape the leaders of tommorow. Sports athletes well they entertain us...but their overall contributions to society are much less. Therefore the extreme pay grade differential just seems ridiculous.

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If teachers do contribute so much to society (I"m not argueing with you, I believe they do) then they should have no problem getting paid a good salary by private schools.

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and yet private school pay is lower than publics.

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You are comparing apples to oranges. You are assuming pay for a teacher in an entirely privatized system will stay the same (or less) then what teachers that work for private schools are getting paid.

And I'm still waiting for your reasoning as to why ending public schools and leaving it to the free market wouldn't be better then public.

Even if it turned out teachers get paid less then what they get aid for now, it would just mean that they have less value then what me and you thought. If we live in a society where what you learn and how you did in highschool matters (which I believe and I'd assume you do to) then people would be willing to pay schools an apt amount of money to make a profit, and be able to pay teachers their respective value to teach their kids.

Threatening people with jail time if they don't hand over money for a crappy system when they may not get anything from it anyway is not the way to make the best product. Do you disagree?

[natedogg]

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At the same time, I bet there are 10000 great and better ideas out there to improve the public school system.


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#1 is to get rid of it entirely.

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Yet, when the measures come to the polls they always fail. Mainly because people who do not have kids will vote against school legislation.

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I disagree. Proposals for *reform* are shot down because of the all-powerful public employee's union. Proposals for more money generally do pretty well. It's because the public has swallowed the nonsense that supporting the public employee's union is the same as supporting good schools for kids, and that schools need more money. Both are false.

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In general people refuse to spend tax dollars on issues not directly affecting them. How do we fix this? Any thoughts or comments would greatly be appreciated.

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The problem with public schools is not due to lack of funds. Not even close.

natedogg

[Copernicus]

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There should be no argument that teachers contribute a great deal to society. Teachers shape the leaders of tommorow. Sports athletes well they entertain us...but their overall contributions to society are much less. Therefore the extreme pay grade differential just seems ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

If teachers do contribute so much to society (I"m not argueing with you, I believe they do) then they should have no problem getting paid a good salary by private schools.

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and yet private school pay is lower than publics.

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You are comparing apples to oranges. You are assuming pay for a teacher in an entirely privatized system will stay the same (or less) then what teachers that work for private schools are getting paid. <font color="red">I didnt compare anything to anything, I just stated a fact, private school teachers make less than public school teachers do. I dont know where teachers wages would go in a totally privatized system </font>

And I'm still waiting for your reasoning as to why ending public schools and leaving it to the free market wouldn't be better then public. <font color="red"> i didnt know you were waiting. tell me the sturucture of this "Free market" education system and i'll comment. Ive never devised one. </font>

Even if it turned out teachers get paid less then what they get aid for now, it would just mean that they have less value then what me and you thought. If we live in a society where what you learn and how you did in highschool matters (which I believe and I'd assume you do to) then people would be willing to pay schools an apt amount of money to make a profit, and be able to pay teachers their respective value to teach their kids. <font color="red">who pays? who sets the wages? </font>

Threatening people with jail time if they don't hand over money for a crappy system when they may not get anything from it anyway is not the way to make the best product. Do you disagree?

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="red"> IVe seen this line before...was it also from you? 1. You dont go to jail for not paying your property taxes so the inflammatory rhetoric is silly. 2. If you dont believe you are receiving good value for your property tax dollar you can move. Since your premise is wrong, there is nothing to agree or disagree with.</font>

[natedogg]

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The teacher's union would raise hell like you couldn't imagine.

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This is the crux of the problem today. Nearly everything wrong with public school can be laid at the feet of the teachers' union.

natedogg

[Copernicus]

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The teacher's union would raise hell like you couldn't imagine.

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This is the crux of the problem today. Nearly everything wrong with public school can be laid at the feet of the teachers' union.

natedogg

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do you think thats true of all unions or unique to the teachers union?

If the latter, what is about the teachers union (with less organized crime infiltration than many other unions) that made it worse?

[ShakeZula06]

If you are just stating the fact that private school teachers make less then public (I don't know but I'll assume you are right) and that has nothing to do with the discussion then I don't know why you posted it.

As for how privatiztion would work, basically here is my theory- In free market capitalism, if people want a product that someone can create and make a profit off of, it will be created. Education is no different. If parents across an area want to send their kids to school, there is no reason not to expect eutrapreanuers or buisnessmen to see profit in creating private schools that basically operate like our colleges do now. There is also no reason not to expect to pay less money then we pay for public schools, being that they will be more efficent since they can fail (which is contrary to public schools). Some schools would be better and cost more, others would geared towards the mddle class, others for poorer areas.

So exactly what will happen? i could imagine a few scenarios, but I think it's impossible to tell exactly how it would happen. Perhapes Borodog or Hmk could say how they would believe it would work.
editted for some bad spelling

[pvn]

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and yet private school pay is lower than publics.

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Public school pay isn't subject to market forces. The "buyer" (government) arbitarily sets the wage and forces taxpayers to to cough it up.

[pvn]

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IVe seen this line before...was it also from you? 1. You dont go to jail for not paying your property taxes so the inflammatory rhetoric is silly.

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But the state may foreclose on your property.

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2. If you dont believe you are receiving good value for your property tax dollar you can move.

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That's no justification, it's just an admission that the state is bullying people around.

I'm coming over to your house tonight with some hotdogs. You will buy them from me for $100 each, and you'll keep buying them until I tell you to stop. If you don't think this is a good deal, you need to move to siberia. Enjoy!