Debate: Teachers Wages

[jokerthief]

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I am so sick of hearing about how low teacher's wages are. They get three months off and it's an easy ass job. They teach simple subject matter and have no one to answer to. They have total job security and have no pressure to perform well beyond their own intrinsic motivation. And to tell you the truth, teachers importance is another vastly over-rated dogma. I've learned more from books than I have from teachers. [/rant]

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1. It is far from an "easy ass job" when its done properly. It doesnt start at 8 and end at 3, with planning, grading, meetings etc. it is easily a 10 hour a day job.

2. Its more like 2 months off, but teachers arent able to hibernate. They still have to eat, feed their families, pay their mortgages etc for those 2 months. On top of that, while they get the same standard holidays as everyone else, they dont have other paid "vacations". If the average vacation time in other industries is 4 weeks, the teacher is less productive than other industries by 1 month, far less than the 3 you are maintaining. The answer to that is to utilize them for that month, either by adjusting to a more year round schedule or finding other things they can do, like continuing education requirements, tutoring etc.

3. The level of job security is higher than other non-unionized industries, but comparable to other union jobs. Pay for performance will go a long way to weeding out or at least mitigating the impact, and certainly address your "motivation" and "pressure" issues.

4. There may be a rare few who can learn as well from books than from teachers, but they are the exception. Their importance is NOT overrated. There is little doubt that they are failing to do their jobs as well as possible, but thats a problem with the system (likely to be a wage issue more than anything), not an intrincically lower value for what they are supposed to be doing.

When you stop ranting, start thinking.

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Thank you for spitting back common goodthink that we have all heard a million times.

Teaching IS an incredibly easy ass job. I just don't buy that it's hard. I used to work with people with severe developmental disabilities and I would spend six months just teaching them just one life skill like doing laundry. That was hard. I home schooled my nephew who was a problem child. That was very simple in comparison. That's when I learned that teaching is not that hard.

If being a teacher is so hard and they are so valuable then why is there a surplus of teachers when they get paid so little? They get paid what their worth. In fact, the market says they get payed more than they are worth, hence the surplus.

[anisotropy]

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Teaching IS an incredibly easy ass job. I just don't buy that it's hard. I used to work with people with severe developmental disabilities and I would spend six months just teaching them just one life skill like doing laundry. That was hard. I home schooled my nephew who was a problem child. That was very simple in comparison. That's when I learned that teaching is not that hard.

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Thanks for quoting your anecdotal "evidence" as data. Please try teaching in a classroom with 30 clones of your "problem child" nephew every day, keeping them in line, communicating with parents and administration and having them pass a state mandated test in March and the let us know how "easy" it is. You really are absolutely clueless.

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If being a teacher is so hard and they are so valuable then why is there a surplus of teachers when they get paid so little? They get paid what their worth. In fact, the market says they get payed more than they are worth, hence the surplus.

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10 years ago there was a teacher surplus. Now there is a definite teacher shortage. But again, it depends on a) where you live and b) what kind of teacher you're talking about. In affluent suburbs, there is probably a teacher surplus in elementary school teachers. But you cannot tell me that in urban areas, there are people beating down the doors to teach high school math and science. There is a massive teacher shortage. Some of it has to do with money but most of it has to do with the fact that teachers don't want to deal with parents who whine more than their kids do.

[jokerthief]

My aunt, sister, cousin, and four college buddys are all teachers. My college buddys (all of which are math teachers) have all had a hell of a time getting jobs. My cousin just got a job and beat out thirty applicants for that one position.

I'll take thirty problem children (like that is even remotely accurate in describing the average classroom anyway) over a dozen severly developmentally disabled individuals and a 14 year old who drinks and smokes an ounce of pot a week any day. Much easier. If you really think teaching simple subjects year after year is super hard then I guess we have different standards on what is and what is not hard.

[Copernicus]

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My aunt, sister, cousin, and four college buddys are all teachers. My college buddys (all of which are math teachers) have all had a hell of a time getting jobs. My cousin just got a job and beat out thirty applicants for that one position.

I'll take thirty problem children (like that is even remotely accurate in describing the average classroom anyway) over a dozen severly developmentally disabled individuals and a 14 year old who drinks and smokes an ounce of pot a week any day. Much easier. If you really think teaching simple subjects year after year is super hard then I guess we have different standards on what is and what is not hard.

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OK..so what is hard? Outside of teaching altogether, since not many would argue that special needs children arent more difficult than average to teach.

[jokerthief]

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My aunt, sister, cousin, and four college buddys are all teachers. My college buddys (all of which are math teachers) have all had a hell of a time getting jobs. My cousin just got a job and beat out thirty applicants for that one position.

I'll take thirty problem children (like that is even remotely accurate in describing the average classroom anyway) over a dozen severly developmentally disabled individuals and a 14 year old who drinks and smokes an ounce of pot a week any day. Much easier. If you really think teaching simple subjects year after year is super hard then I guess we have different standards on what is and what is not hard.

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OK..so what is hard? Outside of teaching altogether, since not many would argue that special needs children arent more difficult than average to teach.

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Many things, that's my point. Playing poker for a living, running a business, being a morgage broker, stockbroker, real estate agent, an accountant, nurse, ect. My point is that I am sick of hearing about how hard and noble being a teacher is. Most teachers aren't noble, it's a job just like any other. Maybe ten percent excel and make a difference but the same can be said about any profession.

[Copernicus]

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My aunt, sister, cousin, and four college buddys are all teachers. My college buddys (all of which are math teachers) have all had a hell of a time getting jobs. My cousin just got a job and beat out thirty applicants for that one position.

I'll take thirty problem children (like that is even remotely accurate in describing the average classroom anyway) over a dozen severly developmentally disabled individuals and a 14 year old who drinks and smokes an ounce of pot a week any day. Much easier. If you really think teaching simple subjects year after year is super hard then I guess we have different standards on what is and what is not hard.

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OK..so what is hard? Outside of teaching altogether, since not many would argue that special needs children arent more difficult than average to teach.

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Many things, that's my point. Playing poker for a living - <font color="red"> I agree, its harder than being a teacher, and in the long run wont pay as much. Stupid choice of a profession imo. If you have the mental abilities to be makig a lot of money at poker there are easier ways to make a better income </font>

running a business <font color="red">depends on the business </font> ,

being a morgage broker <font color="red"> a trivially easy job, not even close to teaching </font> , stockbroker <font color="red"> comparable in skills, way overpaid, not at all hard if you have the personality for it </font> , real estate agent <font color="red">you must be kidding with this one </font> , an accountant <font color="red"> your day to day middle management number cruncher with no aspirations for partnership? nowhere near as hard as teaching </font> , nurse, <font color="red"> comparable </font> ect. My point is that I am sick of hearing about how hard and noble being a teacher is. <font color="red"> "noble" you can leave for philosophers, "hard" doesnt change depending on whether you are sick of hearing about it or not. </font> Most teachers aren't noble, it's a job just like any other. <font color="red"> Nobody says it isnt a job like any other, what is being discussed is whether the wages attract people commensurate with the importance of the job. </font> Maybe ten percent excel and make a difference but the same can be said about any profession.

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="red"> ten percent is way to high, for teaching or any profession. If 1% excel I would be surprised. That doesnt mean that striving to improve the middle ground isnt worthwhile </font>

[jokerthief]

Copernicus,

You are way off with as far as the morgage broker is concerned. That is a VERY stressfull job; most can only hack it for 3 or 4 years.

Also, 95% of stockbrockers fail. Passing a series 7 is no joke. This is WAY harder than teaching. No, I am not kidding about a real estate agent. Again a 90% plus failure rate. Much much higher than teaching and way more stressfull.

I currently run my own business and this is the hardest thing I have ever done. Harder than playing poker and working with developmentally disabled adults.

Pretty much, I disagree with almost all of your assumptions. You really don't seem to have a good grasp of what it takes to make it in these professions. This is why I think you are grossly overestimating the difficulty of teaching.

[ShakeZula06]

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Anyone who has the notion that complete privatization of schools doesnt have a grip on reality.

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why?

[FlFishOn]

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At the same time, I bet there are 10000 great and better ideas out there to improve the public school system.

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I only know of one, vouchers. End the government monopoly.

[Copernicus]

Im not underestimating or overestimating anything, and my "grasp" of what they take is just fine. I think you are underestimating what a teacher does. Also we are likely to have different definitions of "hard". For example, I dont equate stressful with "hard". Stress isnt intrinsic to many jobs, air traffic controller being one of the few exceptions, stress is mostly self imposed.

I dont consider putting in 10-12 hours a day on the phone with a computer clicking "Fixed Rate", "ARM", Credit Score etc. "hard". The majority of a mortgage brokers job can be replaced by a website and a customer service rep with a couple of weeks of training. The typical mortgage broker exam can be passed after a week with a study manual. I was an assistant to a mortgage broker and then a mortgage broker for 3 years as a college dropout and found it incredibly boring.

Stressful? Any job can be stressful if you have unrealistic expectations for long term potential. I couldnt sell life insurance if my life depended on it. The stress of inconsistent earnings and constantly being in backslapping mode would be extremely stressful for me. That doesnt make it hard. The life insurance exams could be passed by anyone who can get a teaching certificate.

Some people would find consultative sales very stressful, to me its natural, and not the least bit hard.

I also distinguish between a job being "hard" and a job requiring attaining specific knowledge. The NASD exams are not particularly difficult taken sequentially and incrementally. Moderate success/failure as a broker has much more to do with perseverence and personality than the job being "hard".

My job as an actuary/financial consultant is embarassingly easy. The exam process to become credentialed is far and away the most difficult and comprehensive of any job except doctor. The average teacher works far harder and faces more stress than I do, and Im in the top 15% (but not the top 5%) of my profession.

Ive already conceded that running your own business is hard, and stressful. I also dont consider it a "job" per se. (I even need to qualify that...building your own business is hard. If you have experience in the field and had a windfall of money and walked in and bought a thriving business, running it well wouldnt be particularly hard).