Wa/Wb - TT - Correct Betting?

[Brad22]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP1 (t820)
MP2 (t525)
MP3 (t1130)
CO (t770)
Button (t910)
SB (t710)
BB (t770)
UTG (t835)
Hero (t775)
UTG+2 (t755)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, Hero calls t15, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t57.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t57.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t15</font>, BB calls t15, UTG folds, Hero calls t15.

River: (t102.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t15</font>, BB calls t15, Hero calls t15.

Final Pot: t147.50

Results below:
SB has Qh Jc (one pair, jacks).
BB has 6c 8d (one pair, sixes).
Hero has Td Th (one pair, tens).
Outcome: SB wins t147.50.


Bet correctly, or was there a need for a raise? (in spite of the results - I've seen far worse hands show up here)

[fatmanonguitar]

I raise pre-flop. But since you didn't, I bet the flop for sure. It's quite likely you have the best hand.

[nyc999]

What level was this at?

The problem is that your play gives no idea where you are in the hand. I bet the flop for 40 - 50, fold to a re-raise. Given you didn't bet the flop, I raise the turn (he could be betting any card on that board).

You need information, and you didn't make any moves to obtain it.

[fatmanonguitar]

[ QUOTE ]
What level was this at?

The problem is that your play gives no idea where you are in the hand. I bet the flop for 40 - 50, fold to a re-raise. Given you didn't bet the flop, I raise the turn (he could be betting any card on that board).

You need information, and you didn't make any moves to obtain it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup.

If anyone could provide a link to thread(s) about WA/WB play (how to identify it and how to proceed) it would be appreciated. To me, unless I'm on a strong draw, I'm always WA/WB!

[elmitchbo]

i'll be the Wa/Wb police here. i feel like i've typed this alot lately, but here i go again....

if you're ahead betting/raising is the correct play. if your behind folding is the correct play. players often call as a compromise between the two. calling isn't the correct play in either situation. it is better to choose one of the options that can be potentailly correct than to choose the option that is almost certainly incorrect.

i would raise preflop. reasonable chance that the QJ folds. you were actually in postion on the flop and it was checked to you.... gotta stick in a bet there. if you get reraised you can evaluate from there.

[fatmanonguitar]

Thanks. Well said.

I will add:

Calling also leaves you with the same uncertainty on the next street.

[microbet]

In this hand, as has been pointed out, you are not really Wa/Wb because you are vulnerable when ahead.

When you are really Wa/Wb there are certainly benefits to calling down. You catch bluffs from the Wb hands and can lose less from the Wa hands. When you are quite possibly behind, but can't fold because of the size of the post, and have very little FE, I think calling down is also good.

I tend to play more like you are talking about and try to take down pots when I think I'm ahead or check/fold if I think I'm behind, but I do think compromise can be correct.

Unarmed?

[fatmanonguitar]

Let's put this to a hypothetical:

You are holding AKo and the flop is KTT. For some reason you have narrowed down his holdings to either a ten or a weaker K with equivalent probablility.

How do you play if you are first to act?

How do you play if he is and 1/2 pots it? checks to you?

[bones]

Where is the WA/WB police?

[tewall]

Just in general terms, I'd be happy to win a small pot. I wouldn't want to lose much of my stack here.