7-Stud ruling question

[MichaelOar]

7 card stud hand:

Guy checks blind on the end. I bet. Guy looks at his down cards, looks at the board, looks back at his down cards, and says "you got it." He then scoops up his board cards with his three down cards, so he's looking at his entire seven-card hand home game style (so the backs of all his cards are facing me).
I ask, "Are you folding?"
He says, "yeah, you got it." About two seconds later he says, "Oh, wait a minute, I raise!"

I call the floor who says . . . ?

Thanks,

Michael

[bav]

If you asked exactly "are you folding" and he said exactly "yeah, you got it", then he has folded.

[AngusThermopyle]

He folded before you asked him.

Robert's Rules:

10. If you pick up your upcards without calling when facing a wager, this is a fold and your hand is dead. This act has no significance at the showdown because betting is over; the hand is live until discarded.

[MichaelOar]

Thanks. I was reasonably sure that this was the rule (and this was a mighty large 30/60 pot) thus, I raised holy hell!

Floor rules that his hand is live and the verbal declaration isn't binding. Now, since his cards are now a jumbled mess, the floor also tells him that he has to put all of his cards face up on table, since he can't be sure which cards were up and which were down!? I'm of course beaten and fold.
I was a visitor in this casino, and everyone else in the stud game was a regular AND about 40 years older that I was, so I'm not sure how much that had to do with this ruling.
Thanks for the info,
Michael

[Jeffage]

What about this situation? I was playing in AC awhile back and bluffed the river against one opponent with four hearts on board. He thought and called, simultaneously mucking his board and holding all his cards in his hand like he was ready for a Go Fish game. Then when I showed, he rolled over a straight. Obviously, I didn't say anything since I'm not trying to win a pot without the best hand in a showdown, but curious if these same thoughts apply here or only turning your board down in response to a bet is considered a fold.

Jeff

[RR]

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but curious if these same thoughts apply here or only turning your board down in response to a bet is considered a fold.

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Only when facing a bet. At showdown there is no way for him to gain information by pickig up his board cards. The business about picking up your board cards when facing a bet being a fold is because it can look like he is folding and cause the other players to act on their hand (or show as the case maybe). In the OP that hand is dead, but I would not be as quick as Robert is to kill a hand just for picking it up (his reasoning is valid, but if a little old lady needs to pick up her two hearts on the board and put them next to the three in her hand to figure out if all five of them are the same suit she can).

[Dynasty]

If he still has his cards, then saying "you got it" isn't going to be ruled a fold in most Las Vegas rooms.

He'll probably be warned about manipulating his cards in an inproper way (turning over the upcards).

[pfapfap]

Saying "you got it" at showdown is not binding at all. When asked, "Are you folding?" and answering in the affirmative, while at the same time picking up the cards while facing a bet, is a different scenario, and technically a fold. However, I can certainly see the floor allowing a call, so tread carefully.

As with everything, "it depends". The other day I was in a 4/8 game shorthanded with two props. One of the angrier and more difficult players (management-wise; he's a total donk) was the low card, but folded. After it was pointed out to him (again) that he was low, he threw out his dollar. Then he asked for his cards back. The props staunchly objected, the floor came over, the mucker was grumpy, the floor said too bad.

Now, this guy has a history, and the floor said to deal the grumpy guy (who was still complaining) out of the next hand. They eventually went away to chat, grumps came back, ranted some more, was told to STFU, threw a hissy, left the game, then like an addict returned ten minutes later, still bitching.

Now, had he been a generally nice and agreeable guy, it's conceivable those in the game would have allowed him the cards back (as there was no other muck). And had he merely turned his card over without mucking, I'm sure the floor would even allow it to play (again assuming he was a nice person).

Tho' to be fair to the mucker, the dealers in this room follow a wide range of their own personal rulebooks and enforcement policies, so it was "reasonable" to expect his cards back, but he's an angry jerk, and it was only a dollar, and his hand was crap anyway, so it's stupid of him to complain in the first place.

[AKQJ10]

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However, I can certainly see the floor allowing a call, so tread carefully.

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Incidentally, this is one place you probably don't want to mumble. If you ask, "Do you fold?" and someone only hears the verb, they could try to impose all kinds of goofy verbally binding declarations on you. I've tried to make a habit to always ask, "Have you acted?" or "What's the action to me?" rather than name an action, because once I got stuck checking at Foxwoods when I really had asked if it was checked to me.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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...I've tried to make a habit to always ask, "Have you acted?" or "What's the action to me?" rather than name an action...

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Great advice.

~ Rick