I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

I normally fold this preflop yadda yadda yadda, but decided to get frisky in position. Thoughts?

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t30 (7 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t1350)
UTG+1 (t2205)
MP1 (t4180)
CO (t990)
Hero (t1445)
SB (t1860)
BB (t1470)

Preflop: Hero is in Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, CO calls t30, Hero calls t30, SB calls t15, <font color="red">BB raises to t60</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, CO calls t30, Hero calls t30, SB calls t30

Flop: (t390) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, <font color="red">Hero bets t240</font>, <font color="gray">SB folds</font>, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>, UTG+1 calls t240, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>

Turn: (t870) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets t1145 (All-in)</font>,

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

Post flop is fine IMO, but if you're going to play this hand pre, I think I'd rather bring it in with a raise since you're on the button and everyone has limped.

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

i disagree with everything wiggs said [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

i would limp here, i think it looks good and you've got good odds to hit big and try and take someone's stack.

i like your flop bet, but i hate hate double hate your turn bet. we need to get to showdown with this hand! for as cheap as possible! please check through turn next time [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

mlagoo--

i agree that preflop and flop are good. my question basically was turn. a normal sized bet commits me. my only problem with checking turn is that i only have 6 outs that allow me to call a big river bet, and as of now i have a lot of FE and most likely 9 outs, and always the possibility of a donk calling me with a worse hand at a 6.50.

given this information, is a push that bad?

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

[ QUOTE ]
i disagree with everything wiggs said [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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Further proof that my "downswing" was not "variance".

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

GKA,

the thing is, i don't think you need to call a big riverbet. if he bluffs you by making a big bet on an unimproved river, good for him. the majority of the time, though, i think he either has the goods or doesn't bet the river.

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

[ QUOTE ]
i disagree with everything wiggs said [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

i would limp here, i think it looks good and you've got good odds to hit big and try and take someone's stack.

i like your flop bet, but i hate hate double hate your turn bet. we need to get to showdown with this hand! for as cheap as possible! please check through turn next time [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

A couple of questions...

A) Why not raise pre on the button? The thing I hate about playing so passively on the button pre is that the times we flop a draw, it's hard to take an aggressive line that looks consistent with our pre-flop play... So now you're setting yourself up to make a bunch of calls and hope to get there with what probably won't be anything close to the nuts if you do.

B) Why not bet the turn? Has villain not played this hand like a flush draw up to this point? If villain has 2 over card hearts, the turn is the first time we've been ahead in the hand, yet you're also saying it's the first time you wouldn't put chips in the pot. Of course if you don't have a flush draw or overs in villain's range and think his line is more indicative of a set, then my reasoning obviously doesn't hold.

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

wiggs,

a) i just think that you have very little fold equity preflop (people are crazy at this stage of the tournament), so you pretty much never take down a nice pot preflop. obviously you might take it down with a CB sometimes, but a lot of the time you'll be taking multiple opponents to the flop and a CB will be ineffective.

i guess it's just that i'm not looking to build a big pot with this hand. i wanna invest my 30 chips and try and make 1500 out of it.

b) well yeah, he's played it like a flush draw. he's also played it like 4x, 56, A8, 77, and a bunch of other hands. so i'm not as concerned with charging his draw as i am showing down my weak top pair.

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

I think you need to let this go after the flop, especially at a 6.5.

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

[ QUOTE ]

A) Why not raise pre on the button? The thing I hate about playing so passively on the button pre is that the times we flop a draw, it's hard to take an aggressive line that looks consistent with our pre-flop play... So now you're setting yourself up to make a bunch of calls and hope to get there with what probably won't be anything close to the nuts if you do.

B) Why not bet the turn? Has villain not played this hand like a flush draw up to this point? If villain has 2 over card hearts, the turn is the first time we've been ahead in the hand, yet you're also saying it's the first time you wouldn't put chips in the pot. Of course if you don't have a flush draw or overs in villain's range and think his line is more indicative of a set, then my reasoning obviously doesn't hold.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think we have any reason to believe villain pays any attention to our preflop play, so a preflop raise won't gain us much in value. I like a limp here.

I think the flop bet is perfect. however if we bet this turn we're commiting ourselves to the pot with top pair no kicker. check through turn and river, and call a medium sized bet on the river.

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

[ QUOTE ]

A) Why not raise pre on the button? The thing I hate about playing so passively on the button pre is that the times we flop a draw, it's hard to take an aggressive line that looks consistent with our pre-flop play... So now you're setting yourself up to make a bunch of calls and hope to get there with what probably won't be anything close to the nuts if you do.


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I should elaborate on this because I'm not saying that if you limp in you should always call the flop and never raise or anything. But consider that most flops that someone bets at you on are going to contain over cards that they probably paired so I don't think your FE is that high... I mean whatever line you take postflop, I can see a lot of chips going in the pot while you're drawing to a small flush and I don't really think your hand is going to be greatly disguised since you just limped preflop.

I know I'm just spewing thoughts at this point and should probably take more time to condense them and whatnot... but I think the implied odds in this type of hands really differ from the implied odds of say 66, which is a hand I WOULD limp with here. With 66, you have a really easy way of telling whether you should put a bunch of chips in on the flop. With a hand like 86s I think your implied odds come from being able to play post-flop like you don't have a flush draw or like you don't have a straight draw on a board of 379. So that way when you hit either of your draws your "villain" has a hard time putting you on 86s. So really, that entire approach of hand disguising stars with raising PF I think.

Plus you get the added advantages of being able to take the pot PF and being able to c-bet and take the pot.

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

[ QUOTE ]
he's also played it like 4x, 56, A8, 77

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Raise PF and all those except 77 (sometimes A8) folds and 77 folds when you bet the flop = end of hand.

I'm being a nit now, I know. I'll stop.

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

wiggs,

I don't think at this level (this is a $6 sng right?) we're gaining much equity through deception. I think we'll make just as much when we hit a flush if we limp as if we raise.

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

You're may well be right... probably are since I'm the only one who would take my line.

Either NL100 is ruining my low stakes STT game or I'm an idiot who has luck boxed his way to temporary profit.

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

hey, if you're winning at NL100 i wouldn't worry too much about your low stakes STT game

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

True, but I try to post good advice. To be honest, I wish people would disagree with me more... I think it's helpful for everyone because it generates better discussion. I feel like a lot of the time someone that's a Pooh-bah makes a post, everyone assumes it's great advice. I think I post mostly good advice, hope so anyway, but I'm sure not everything I say is right. It's not like I don't still have leaks too.

Also, consider this could all just be complicated meta game work for STTHUC III. Maybe I don't want people knowing how I'd really play a hand in the event that I actually attend this one.

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

And here's how it ends.

UTG+1 calls.

River is a blank. UTG+1 shows Q8o and stacks your chips.

This is a 6.50, right?

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

y does everyone think u have to bet? you have position, check behind and c/c a reasonable river.

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

Post flop is fine, but the problem is when you limp with these speculative hands you are giving up so much equity by having more players in. You can have a strong hand like this but with 6 players who knows what they have right now.

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

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y does everyone think u have to bet? you have position, check behind and c/c a reasonable river.

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noone [censored] agrees with me? unless this is obvious to u fish now, then fine, but [censored] christ. CHECK behind. if he pushes the river and you don't improve, FOLD.

i get aggressive when i post, drink, come back for responses/rebuttles and see nothing. impress me.

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

Check fold flop. You have tpnk on a draw heavy multiway pot.

Re: I took a flop with 86 soooted (6.5)
 

"I took a flop with 86 soooted"

DONKEY