Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

You can pay as much $5,000 per month to play cash games on the internet. Here's the math:

$3 rake per pot X 1/10th person X 50 hands per hour X 8 tables at a time X 40 hours per week = $4800.00 per month

If you play $500 SNG's, 50 per day X 20 days per month, you are paying $30,000.00 per month in juice! Here's the math:

$30 Fee X 50 SNGs X 20 days per month=$30,000.00

Here's a realistic example, of a non-pro internet poker player. 2 tables a night, for 4 hours, 4 nights a week:

$15 per hour per table X 2 tables X 4 hour X 4 nights =$480 a week.

And 90% of you are playing low limits. You are risking $30 to win $27 in $60 pots. 5% of every pot is being taken. This guarantees, it is a mathematical certainty, virtually all low limit players lose all their $$$. Your edge is not larger than 5% on average.

Here's a very clear example the effect of rake in low limit games. There are 10 players at the table each with $100 playing $3-$6 limit holdem. We'll assume every pot is raked the max of $3. In one hour the house has raked away $150. (50 hands per hourX$3)In 6 hours the house will have raked away $900. Do you see? Collectively, those 10 players have $100 left. THE HOUSE IS GETTING ALLLLLLL THE $$$$$.


This is the best business model and also the biggest fleecing of the masses ever. Gambling truly is a tax on dumb people. There is no reason we should pay this amount of $$$ or anywhere near it. WAKE UP, people!! Poker should be a near even sum game, a 3rd party shouldnt be charging us a fortune to play cards against one another. IT SHOULD BE A NEAR EVEN SUM GAME, we can all enjoy.

I AM EMPLORE EVERYONE TO SIGNUP AT A NO RAKE SITE IMMEDIATELY, AND TELL EVERY SINGLE INTERNET POKER PLAYER YOU KNOW TO DO THE SAME. It is time we brought down the cost of poker. The fleecing of poker players cant stand.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

if you think it's a rip-off, don't play poker.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

I have no idea why you or anyone would defend the cost of internet poker. why would you chime in with:

"if you think it's a rip-off, don't play poker.
"

My central thesis on life is: EVERYONE IS DUMB. Except all the high limit players, DS, EM, and MM. And the people that own and run these companies. And Bill Gates. HAHA

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You can pay as much $5,000 per month to play cash games on the internet. Here's the math:

$3 rake per pot X 1/10th person X 50 hands per hour X 8 tables at a time X 40 hours per week = $4800.00 per month

If you play $500 SNG's, 50 per day X 20 days per month, you are paying $30,000.00 per month in juice! Here's the math:

$30 Fee X 50 SNGs X 20 days per month=$30,000.00

Here's a realistic example, of a non-pro internet poker player. 2 tables a night, for 4 hours, 4 nights a week:

$15 per hour per table X 2 tables X 4 hour X 4 nights =$480 a week.

And 90% of you are playing low limits. You are risking $30 to win $27 in $60 pots. 5% of every pot is being taken. This guarantees, it is a mathematical certainty, virtually all low limit players lose all their $$$. Your edge is not larger than 5% on average.

Here's a very clear example the effect of rake in low limit games. There are 10 players at the table each with $100 playing $3-$6 limit holdem. We'll assume every pot is raked the max of $3. In one hour the house has raked away $150. (50 hands per hourX$3)In 6 hours the house will have raked away $900. Do you see? Collectively, those 10 players have $100 left. THE HOUSE IS GETTING ALLLLLLL THE $$$$$.


This is the best business model and also the biggest fleecing of the masses ever. Gambling truly is a tax on dumb people. There is no reason we should pay this amount of $$$ or anywhere near it. WAKE UP, people!! Poker should be a near even sum game, a 3rd party shouldnt be charging us a fortune to play cards against one another. IT SHOULD BE A NEAR EVEN SUM GAME, we can all enjoy.

I AM EMPLORE EVERYONE TO SIGNUP AT A NO RAKE SITE IMMEDIATELY, AND TELL EVERY SINGLE INTERNET POKER PLAYER YOU KNOW TO DO THE SAME. It is time we brought down the cost of poker. The fleecing of poker players cant stand.

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your low-limit assessment is simplistic. you assumed every pot was raked 3 dollars and you assumed that the same people would be there the whole time. neither would ever be the case. 3 dollars is the max rake.

i have made quite a bit of money at 2/4 and 3/6 over the year. i guess you'll just have to assume i'm telling the truth.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

Of course I made assumptions. And I know you can win low limits if the players are really bad and pay off on every street, when you have like the nutz. But thats not my point. The absurd cost to play poker is.

Risking $10 to win $9 in $20 pots, etc, guarantees 99% of people lose every cent they have in their account.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a very clear example the effect of rake in low limit games. There are 10 players at the table each with $100 playing $3-$6 limit holdem. We'll assume every pot is raked the max of $3.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhhhh, wouldn't that mean every pot was at least $300? How often do you see pots that are 50 big bets in a limit game, never mind games where that's the norm?

Nice use of scare math.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

Even if he maxed out the mathematical examples, he still has a point. I pay about 6-8k a month in rake. There are other high limit players paying close to 18k a month in rake. That's still very expensive throughout the year.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

It's a Cost of Doing Business. You don't like it, find another business. Simple. Can't you understand that? Jeeze, Louise.

What's your annual net? What percentage of your net are your expenses (rake, etc.)? Can you do better in some other area? Go there. Do that. Be happy.

Does your mom know you're playing online poker? Go cry on her shoulder. Maybe she'll give you some cookies and milk. And then you can take a nap.

Finish high school. Go to college. Graduate with honors and get a great job. Make lots of money. Invest in your own poker site and run it on the cheap. Leave lots of money on the table. Make people happy. Feel good about yourself and become famous.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

You hate paying rake, we get it. Do you have to post about it every few days?

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's a Cost of Doing Business. You don't like it, find another business. Simple. Can't you understand that? Jeeze, Louise.

What's your annual net? What percentage of your net are your expenses (rake, etc.)? Can you do better in some other area? Go there. Do that. Be happy.

Does your mom know you're playing online poker? Go cry on her shoulder. Maybe she'll give you some cookies and milk. And then you can take a nap.

Finish high school. Go to college. Graduate with honors and get a great job. Make lots of money. Invest in your own poker site and run it on the cheap. Leave lots of money on the table. Make people happy. Feel good about yourself and become famous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you probably make some good money, and you don't want to change a winning recipe and all; I do too right now.

I can't, however, help but think about all the extra money I'd make if the sites had reasonable rake-rates. The rake number in my pokertracker for the previous year is really horrible to behold, and even though i make enough, I can see that this number is putting alot of players in the red who could have been small winners. This would have been good for the games, no doubt.

Also, I think it's really weird how people here frequently react to questions about rake with so much anger and contempt, like the people asking questions are labeled "unwanted troublemakers" or something. Why is this? Do people really want the rake to be this high? I understand concerns about the sites having your money and safety issues with them being poorer, but come on, if we force them to make the rake one 4th or 3rd of what it is the only thing that's gonna change is just that. The sites will still be filthy rich, and all the players will have improved results overnight no matter their skill level. It can only be a good thing, and people can make it happen if we don't act like sheep.

God, I hope they don't flip the switch on me now [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Here's a very clear example the effect of rake in low limit games. There are 10 players at the table each with $100 playing $3-$6 limit holdem. We'll assume every pot is raked the max of $3.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhhhh, wouldn't that mean every pot was at least $300? How often do you see pots that are 50 big bets in a limit game, never mind games where that's the norm?

Nice use of scare math.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't the rake hit $3 in 3/6 at a $60 pot (at least at Party Poker)? So it does happen, but it is the exception rather than the rule.

I think the actual average rake at 3/6 is more like $1 per pot.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

fwiw, in my business, operating costs run $50k-$250k per month for a net of ~5% that. poker is cheap.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

Ruth Parasol is a genius. First internet porn, then Party. Is it any wonder she's among the world's richest people?

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2005/54/TX20.html

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

I pay @ $10k/month in trading commissions. Like anything, costs money to make money.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

Internet poker is competitive. So if the cost can come down, it ultimately will. The thing is, running a big reputable site has huge overhead -- servers, security, financing, office space, advertising, tech staff, service staff, financial staff, marketing staff. Like any other business, big and good is going to be more expensive than the cheapest operation. But most people will choose to pay a little more. If rakes get crazy, someone will find a profitable opportunity to be big, good and a little cheaper. And so on....

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your edge is not larger than 5% on average.


[/ QUOTE ]

False.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

"Also, I think it's really weird how people here frequently react to questions about rake with so much anger and contempt, like the people asking questions are labeled "unwanted troublemakers" or something. "

THANK YOU!! Jesus christ, its about time someone said that.
People or corporations in positions of authority can do no wrong in some peoples minds.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

i hate all these rake nits

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

Anyone who isnt a rake nit, has no sense in their head.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a very clear example the effect of rake in low limit games. There are 10 players at the table each with $100 playing $3-$6 limit holdem. We'll assume every pot is raked the max of $3.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhhhh, wouldn't that mean every pot was at least $300? How often do you see pots that are 50 big bets in a limit game, never mind games where that's the norm?

Nice use of scare math.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't the rake hit $3 in 3/6 at a $60 pot (at least at Party Poker)? So it does happen, but it is the exception rather than the rule.

I think the actual average rake at 3/6 is more like $1 per pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it hit the 3$ cap at the 100$ mark. From my pt though it looks like a little less then $1/hand is raked on average.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

Not that I am any fan of paying a rake, but I think Party, Stars, FullTilt, etc are entitled to make money off their site. The money it takes to develop their software, maintain their servers, customer service assistance, payroll, etc is substantial. Are they still getting very wealthy off of it? I am sure they are. Its like any brand new industry. Those in it at the beginning have a chance to make a killing. Once everyone gets involved it gets less profitable but still a good amount for a smart business person. They provide us a service. No one would argue that they should not be compenstated for it. The question then becomes if the level of compensation is too high or not? I feel that I can take my money elsewhere if the answer to that question is yes

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

I haven't read your post or any of the responses so I apologize if my answer has already been given.

Getting married and having children were the first two things I thought of that are more expensive than poker.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

How much rent do you think boutiques pay on Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills? Why don't they move their stores to Fargo, ND for cheaper rent?

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who isnt a rake nit, has no sense in their head.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I may ask, how do you propose a poker room make money? And don't say charge a flat fee per month - that's not a new concept.

Personally, I don't think 5% rake (yes, I know there are some exceptions) is anything to get one's panties in a bunch about (and at high stakes, the $3 cap is generally much lower than 5%). The poker room needs to make money. Sure, over the long run, the amount of rake high-volume players pay can look staggering, but compared to what winning players actually make, it's not really that big of a deal. Even at low stakes, frankly, I don't particularly mind giving 50 cents to the house when I scoop a $10 pot. I know it's kind of a "fish" mentality ("Hey, I still won, so who cares?"), but the poker room is providing the service, so they should be paid.

In the end, I'm going to assume you are an affiliate for WSEX.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Getting married and having children were the first two things I thought of that are more expensive than poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

[censored]. I did one already and in a few months, I will be doing the other. Decide on your own which order to put those in.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Here's a very clear example the effect of rake in low limit games. There are 10 players at the table each with $100 playing $3-$6 limit holdem. We'll assume every pot is raked the max of $3. In one hour the house has raked away $150. (50 hands per hourX$3)In 6 hours the house will have raked away $900.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who isnt a rake nit, has no sense in their head.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I may ask, how do you propose a poker room make money? And don't say charge a flat fee per month - that's not a new concept.

Personally, I don't think 5% rake (yes, I know there are some exceptions) is anything to get one's panties in a bunch about (and at high stakes, the $3 cap is generally much lower than 5%). The poker room needs to make money. Sure, over the long run, the amount of rake high-volume players pay can look staggering, but compared to what winning players actually make, it's not really that big of a deal. Even at low stakes, frankly, I don't particularly mind giving 50 cents to the house when I scoop a $10 pot. I know it's kind of a "fish" mentality ("Hey, I still won, so who cares?"), but the poker room is providing the service, so they should be paid.

In the end, I'm going to assume you are an affiliate for WSEX.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just like we should assume you're an affiliate that benefits from a high rake?

I agree that the sites need to make money, but I think they can cut the rake in half and still make plenty. And they do a lot of stuff with that extra money that I don't necessarily care for. Examples: player points, freeroll tournaments, paying for high profile players to shill for them. If they simply run a bug-free site with good customer support and a reasonable advertisement budget, and charge enough to make a healthy profit still, there'd be no complaints about rake.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

Well, hookers and booze can get expensive, too...unless you have a taste for Schmidt and toofless women.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

havent seen this same post you seem to make every few days in BBV yet. Try over there, real friendly people and YES they are all paying to much rake.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
And I know you can win low limits if the players are really bad and pay off on every street, when you have like the nutz.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not how you beat low limit poker. I am now quite convinced that you sir, are a losing player.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

Party had something like a 50% profit margin when they first went public. There are few if any other industries that can boast that kind of profit margin, and almost certainly none with the kind of volume that online poker sites generate. If basic economic theory is correct, then the price of rake will have to come down. Of course, that assumes a rational consumer, and sadly I really doubt that losing players act rationally.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that the sites need to make money, but I think they can cut the rake in half and still make plenty.

[/ QUOTE ]

then move to gibraltar, open a site with lower rake, and make millions.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

Holy [censored], have have you ever played poker in a B&M casino?

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that the sites need to make money, but I think they can cut the rake in half and still make plenty.

[/ QUOTE ]

then move to gibraltar, open a site with lower rake, and make millions.

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that the sites need to make money, but I think they can cut the rake in half and still make plenty.

[/ QUOTE ]

then move to gibraltar, open a site with lower rake, and make millions.

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh

[/ QUOTE ]

good answer. if running an online poker site with no rake, or with less rake than party, is so lucrative, then why isn't every venture capitalist jumping at the opportunity?

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

Wow, what a revelation.

What next? The total cost of tipping a dealer over a month?

Welcome to poker outside a home game...

b

Btw...

[ QUOTE ]
This guarantees, it is a mathematical certainty, virtually all low limit players lose all their $$$.

[/ QUOTE ]

Virtually all players lose all their money. Regardless of rake.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I pay @ $10k/month in trading commissions.

[/ QUOTE ]

You wanna get yourself a rakeback deal

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You can pay as much $5,000 per month to play cash games on the internet. Here's the math:

$3 rake per pot X 1/10th person X 50 hands per hour X 8 tables at a time X 40 hours per week = $4800.00 per month

If you play $500 SNG's, 50 per day X 20 days per month, you are paying $30,000.00 per month in juice! Here's the math:

$30 Fee X 50 SNGs X 20 days per month=$30,000.00

Here's a realistic example, of a non-pro internet poker player. 2 tables a night, for 4 hours, 4 nights a week:

$15 per hour per table X 2 tables X 4 hour X 4 nights =$480 a week.

And 90% of you are playing low limits. You are risking $30 to win $27 in $60 pots. 5% of every pot is being taken. This guarantees, it is a mathematical certainty, virtually all low limit players lose all their $$$. Your edge is not larger than 5% on average.

Here's a very clear example the effect of rake in low limit games. There are 10 players at the table each with $100 playing $3-$6 limit holdem. We'll assume every pot is raked the max of $3. In one hour the house has raked away $150. (50 hands per hourX$3)In 6 hours the house will have raked away $900. Do you see? Collectively, those 10 players have $100 left. THE HOUSE IS GETTING ALLLLLLL THE $$$$$.


This is the best business model and also the biggest fleecing of the masses ever. Gambling truly is a tax on dumb people. There is no reason we should pay this amount of $$$ or anywhere near it. WAKE UP, people!! Poker should be a near even sum game, a 3rd party shouldnt be charging us a fortune to play cards against one another. IT SHOULD BE A NEAR EVEN SUM GAME, we can all enjoy.

I AM EMPLORE EVERYONE TO SIGNUP AT A NO RAKE SITE IMMEDIATELY, AND TELL EVERY SINGLE INTERNET POKER PLAYER YOU KNOW TO DO THE SAME. It is time we brought down the cost of poker. The fleecing of poker players cant stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't heard of any rake free poker sites. Are those like home games are something?

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
EVERYONE IS DUMB

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who isnt a rake nit, has no sense in their head

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think it's really weird how people here frequently react to questions about rake with so much anger and contempt

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah...really weird.

Re: Is there anything in the world more expensive than internet poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Also, I think it's really weird how people here frequently react to questions about rake with so much anger and contempt, like the people asking questions are labeled "unwanted troublemakers" or something. "

THANK YOU!! Jesus christ, its about time someone said that.
People or corporations in positions of authority can do no wrong in some peoples minds.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that we hate questions about rake, it's that we don't like trolls.