Baseball HOF Results
 

Sutter in. Everybody else out. Honestly I doubt any of the others will ever get in.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

web page

Candidate Votes % of Votes
Bruce Sutter 400 76.9
Jim Rice 337 64.8
Rich Gossage 336 64.6
Andre Dawson 317 61.0
Bert Blyleven 277 53.3
Lee Smith 234 45.0
Jack Morris 214 41.2
Tommy John 154 29.6
Steve Garvey 135 26.0
Alan Trammell 92 17.7
Dave Parker 76 14.4
Dave Concepcion 65 12.5
Don Mattingly 64 12.3
Orel Hershiser 58 11.2
Dale Murphy 56 10.8
Albert Belle 40 7.7
Will Clark 23 4.4
Dwight Gooden 17 3.3
Willie McGee 12 2.3
Hal Morris 5 1.0
Ozzie Guillen 5 1.0
Gary Gaetti 4 0.8
John Wetteland 4 0.8
Rick Aguilera 3 0.6
Doug Jones 2 0.4
Greg Jefferies 2 0.4
Walt Weiss 1 0.2
Gary DiSarcina 0 0.0
Alex Fernandez 0 0.0

ozzie gullien lol.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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Sutter in. Everybody else out. Honestly I doubt any of the others will ever get in.

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I can't stand the idea of relievers (read failed starters) getting into the HOF. Look at Gagne's stats as a starter befroe he went to the pen, or better still, look at the collection of 40 save Reds (Williamson, Graves) who were mediocre at best when starting the game versus finishing it.

Really cheapens the honor for teh guys like Aaron, Mays, etc.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

Sutter and Gossage were the first two guys on the cusp of the "Closer Era". Like it or not, the advent of the closer changed the way the game was played. So when you combine his stats and impact on the game, I think Sutter isn't a horrible inclusion.

For that same reason, I think Tommy John/Dr. James Andrews should be inducted.

Next year should be interesting with Gwynn/Ripken/MCGWIRE on the ballot. McGwire furor should be entertaining.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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web page

Candidate Votes % of Votes
Bruce Sutter 400 76.9
Jim Rice 337 64.8
Rich Gossage 336 64.6
Andre Dawson 317 61.0
Bert Blyleven 277 53.3
Lee Smith 234 45.0
Jack Morris 214 41.2
Tommy John 154 29.6
Steve Garvey 135 26.0
Alan Trammell 92 17.7
Dave Parker 76 14.4
Dave Concepcion 65 12.5
Don Mattingly 64 12.3
Orel Hershiser 58 11.2
Dale Murphy 56 10.8
Albert Belle 40 7.7
Will Clark 23 4.4
Dwight Gooden 17 3.3
Willie McGee 12 2.3
Hal Morris 5 1.0
Ozzie Guillen 5 1.0
Gary Gaetti 4 0.8
John Wetteland 4 0.8
Rick Aguilera 3 0.6
Doug Jones 2 0.4
Greg Jefferies 2 0.4
Walt Weiss 1 0.2
Gary DiSarcina 0 0.0
Alex Fernandez 0 0.0

ozzie gullien lol.

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I don't know what's worse, Walt Weiss getting 1 vote or Gary DiSarcina being on the ballot at all. DiSarcina had 28 career HRs and a career .258 BA, made one All-Star team, batted over .300 once and over .260 twice.

Why was he even on the ballot?

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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I can't stand the idea of relievers (read failed starters) getting into the HOF.

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Funny to say that when Sutter gets in. He can't be called a failed starter since he never started a game in the majors... the first true relief pitcher elected.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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Like it or not, the advent of the closer changed the way the game was played

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I agree with this in Sutter's case. Really dominant closers merit inclusion. That said, I can think of only one current closer who should be in the Hall, and he's starting to level off now.

Not sure how I feel about a closer's team results being brought to bear though. Would Rivera be worthy if he pitched for the Reds?

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

I don't know much about it, but Hershiser is/was never expected to make it?

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

[ QUOTE ]

I can't stand the idea of relievers (read failed starters) getting into the HOF. Look at Gagne's stats as a starter befroe he went to the pen, or better still, look at the collection of 40 save Reds (Williamson, Graves) who were mediocre at best when starting the game versus finishing it.

Really cheapens the honor for teh guys like Aaron, Mays, etc.

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Starting pitcher and relief pitcher are like two different positions.

What if Roger Clemens started off as a shortstop but it didn't work out, so he became a starting pitcher? He still would deserve the Hall because he's a successful starting pitcher. He wouldn't be disqualified because he wasn't a great shortstop.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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For that same reason, I think Tommy John/Dr. James Andrews should be inducted.


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I think you mean Dr. Frank Jobe.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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McGwire furor should be entertaining.

[/ QUOTE ] [censored] McGwire, one of the most overrated POS ever in the History of baseball, AND A USER.


all I am saying.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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DiSarcina had 28 career HRs and a career .258 BA, made one All-Star team, batted over .300 once and over .260 twice.

Why was he even on the ballot?

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3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

1. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.
2. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).
3. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.
4. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.
5. Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.


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link

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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Look at Gagne's stats as a starter befroe he went to the pen, or better still, look at the collection of 40 save Reds (Williamson, Graves) who were mediocre at best when starting the game versus finishing it.

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2 sub-par seasons does not define a career. who's to say he would have found his groove as a SP?

Barry Bonds would be a horrible catcher, but is a HOF OF. like it or not, the closer is now as valid a position on the team as a starter. whether or not that's a good thing is debateable, but it's not gonna change anytime soon.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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4. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.


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so if you die you skip the waiting period? am i reading that correctly? huh. go figure.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

Yes, Jobe originated the procedure. Andrews perfected it.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

I can see strong arguments for Lee Smith and up.

They need to get 75% of the votes right?

Years down the road those guys might get in. Isn't Lee Smith the all-time saves leader? lol. How is he not in?

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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web page

Candidate Votes % of Votes
Bruce Sutter 400 76.9
Jim Rice 337 64.8
Rich Gossage 336 64.6
Andre Dawson 317 61.0
Bert Blyleven 277 53.3
Lee Smith 234 45.0
Jack Morris 214 41.2
Tommy John 154 29.6
Steve Garvey 135 26.0
Alan Trammell 92 17.7
Dave Parker 76 14.4
Dave Concepcion 65 12.5
Don Mattingly 64 12.3
Orel Hershiser 58 11.2
Dale Murphy 56 10.8
Albert Belle 40 7.7
Will Clark 23 4.4
Dwight Gooden 17 3.3
Willie McGee 12 2.3
Hal Morris 5 1.0
Ozzie Guillen 5 1.0
Gary Gaetti 4 0.8
John Wetteland 4 0.8
Rick Aguilera 3 0.6
Doug Jones 2 0.4
Greg Jefferies 2 0.4
Walt Weiss 1 0.2
Gary DiSarcina 0 0.0
Alex Fernandez 0 0.0

ozzie gullien lol.

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I don't know what's worse, Walt Weiss getting 1 vote or Gary DiSarcina being on the ballot at all. DiSarcina had 28 career HRs and a career .258 BA, made one All-Star team, batted over .300 once and over .260 twice.

Why was he even on the ballot?

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He has a cool award named after him though.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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web page

Candidate Votes % of Votes

Walt Weiss 1 0.2
Gary DiSarcina 0 0.0
Alex Fernandez 0 0.0

ozzie gullien lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what's worse, Walt Weiss getting 1 vote or Gary DiSarcina being on the ballot at all. DiSarcina had 28 career HRs and a career .258 BA, made one All-Star team, batted over .300 once and over .260 twice.

Why was he even on the ballot?

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He has a cool award named after him though.

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DiSarcina should be the last guy not wanting to draw a walk. Geez.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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so if you die you skip the waiting period? am i reading that correctly? huh. go figure.

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this is the 1973 "Roberto Clemente" amendment

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

I have to wonder what the mentality of some of the voters is for voting for anyone who's not in the top 5-10. Surely the guy who voted for Walk Weiss does not believe that he belongs in the HOF...so what's the motivation for voting for guys like him?

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

Of the first four then-active players mentioned in that article, two play for the Cubs, one spent much of his career there and is now retired, and they've been trying to trade for the other one for months now.

ugghhhhhhhhhh...

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

I am not a stats guy, and therefore have no statistical argument, but Jim Rice is my favorite baseball player of all time and should be in the Hall of Fame.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

How Sutter got elected above Gossage is beyond me. Look at their stats. Now ask yourself: "I am up one run with two innings to go. Who, in their prime, do I want out there?" I know my answer. Ignore awful awful use of tenses.

I don't understand how Rik Aalbert Blyleven is not in. Nor do I understand why Alan Trammell is foundering around 17% of the vote. Well, check it. I understand that one. It's a different era, so we're no longer impressed.

I'm gonna start my own damn Hall of Fame.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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I can't stand the idea of relievers (read failed starters) getting into the HOF. Look at Gagne's stats as a starter befroe he went to the pen, or better still, look at the collection of 40 save Reds (Williamson, Graves) who were mediocre at best when starting the game versus finishing it.

Really cheapens the honor for teh guys like Aaron, Mays, etc.

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Starting pitcher and relief pitcher are like two different positions.

What if Roger Clemens started off as a shortstop but it didn't work out, so he became a starting pitcher? He still would deserve the Hall because he's a successful starting pitcher. He wouldn't be disqualified because he wasn't a great shortstop.

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I had a feeling that my opinion would be unpopular, but I really struggle with this as there is a constant ballwashing on the flavor of the month reliever.

On your example, I see it more as a guy, Manny Mota, or Del Unser, for example, who are good, clutch pinch hitters. They get it done consistently and a very good agent devises a stat that shows their meaningfull contribution in a stat that catches fire and over the years is severely inflated. Later, at their retirement, people are citing this bogus stat in order to get consensus on their HOF nomination and somehow, it builds momentum and they get in. Now, they couldn't get on the field as an everyday player, but because they were able to do well with this stat, they are seen as a "specialist" and therefore considered HOF worthy.

Also, in regards to Sutter always being a reliever in MLB, I totally understand and am on board - however, there had to be a point in time that he was moved to the pen (Minors?) and my guess is that it was because he could not get the job done inning 1-7. Speculation, yes, but I will attempt to do some research and find stats that include his minor league career to see where the transition took place.

JMHO and I am sure that flames will follow.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

Ugh, please don't let Jim Rice ever get in. It's not just that he isn't worthy (he isn't), it's that the people who are his most vocal support are idiots like Bill Simmons that think he's better than Wade Boggs.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

The difference between a good pinch hitter and a bad one is marginal - I wouldn't be surprised if there are arguments that there is none at all, though I would dispute that.

However, the difference between a great closer and a bad one is far wider. Some pitchers who are great starters could never be great closers, and vice versa. Yet any hitter should be able to be a pinch hitter without a significant loss or gain in his performance. Being a great closer takes a specific skill set.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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Some pitchers who are great starters could never be great closers

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I think the number of great starters who couldn't be ghreat closers is somewhere around zero.

Hey Clarkie
 

Willie fell just short again.

What\'s the Argument for Sutter Getting In?
 

I don't get it. Why should Sutter be in the HOF?

Re: Hey Clarkie
 

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Willie fell just short again.

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No return next year for him. Bummer. I'll still sport his jersey with pride though. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

http://tryingtogrok.mu.nu/archives/mcgee.jpg

http://williemcgee.com/mcgee07.jpg

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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I have to wonder what the mentality of some of the voters is for voting for anyone who's not in the top 5-10. Surely the guy who voted for Walk Weiss does not believe that he belongs in the HOF...so what's the motivation for voting for guys like him?

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In the Keith Olbermann/Dan Patrick ESPN book (can't remember the name), Olbermann tells a story about how HOF voters often will vote for a lower-tier guy just as a pat on the back kind of thing. "Hey, I voted for you, pal."

But one year, Olbermann says, a lot of the voters had the same idea -- and picked the same guy. So he got in. I'll try to find the story on the Web, but I don't think it was any time recently.

But anyway, I think some voters throw a bone to the guys they know won't get in as a nice gesture. Which is ridiculous.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

okay, biggest WTFs about the ballot.

Sutter over Gossage? WTF.
Jim Rice so high? WTF.
Alan Trammel so low? WTF.
Bert Blyleven getting screwed? WTF.
Will Clark one and done? WTF.

Here's who, from this ballot, I *wouldn't* put over Sutter in the HOF:

Pretty much every guy with 20 votes would've been a better choice than Sutter. Seriously.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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Sutter and Gossage were the first two guys on the cusp of the "Closer Era". Like it or not, the advent of the closer changed the way the game was played. So when you combine his stats and impact on the game, I think Sutter isn't a horrible inclusion.

For that same reason, I think Tommy John/Dr. James Andrews should be inducted.

Next year should be interesting with Gwynn/Ripken/MCGWIRE on the ballot. McGwire furor should be entertaining.

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From an innovation standpoint Sutter did perfect the splitter.
Also I don't see how someone would vote for Sutter and not for Gossage. I can see how one would vote for both, or neither, but not one or the other.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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I am not a stats guy, and therefore have no statistical argument, but Jim Rice is my favorite baseball player of all time and should be in the Hall of Fame.

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Dave Parker is comparable to Jim Rice batting-wise, and was a much better fielder, thrower, and base runner. He was also an a-hole off the field (like Rice). I have seen ZERO support for his candidacy. Jim Rice is not a HOFer.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

What's keeping Dawson out? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

1. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.
2. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).
3. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.
4. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.
5. Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

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Interesting.

Does this mean that anyone who fits the criteria (essentially 10 years in the league) is automatically put on the ballot? I didn't realize that. It would explain DiSarcina's presence.

I wonder which voter 'threw the bone' to Weiss.

Re: Hey Clarkie
 

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Willie fell just short again.

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No return next year for him. Bummer. I'll still sport his jersey with pride though. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

http://tryingtogrok.mu.nu/archives/mcgee.jpg

http://williemcgee.com/mcgee07.jpg

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Willie should be a good sport and mail Dave Parker the 1985 MVP trophy - Cobra deserved it! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I have to wonder what the mentality of some of the voters is for voting for anyone who's not in the top 5-10. Surely the guy who voted for Walk Weiss does not believe that he belongs in the HOF...so what's the motivation for voting for guys like him?

[/ QUOTE ]


In the Keith Olbermann/Dan Patrick ESPN book (can't remember the name), Olbermann tells a story about how HOF voters often will vote for a lower-tier guy just as a pat on the back kind of thing. "Hey, I voted for you, pal."

But one year, Olbermann says, a lot of the voters had the same idea -- and picked the same guy. So he got in. I'll try to find the story on the Web, but I don't think it was any time recently.

But anyway, I think some voters throw a bone to the guys they know won't get in as a nice gesture. Which is ridiculous.

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The book "The Big Show" had an entire chapter on the HOF and basically Keith said that the HOF was eternally cheapened when the Veterans Committee put Rick Farrell in in 1984. He said that there was a political thing going on where guys would put a guy on the ballot so that they can tell him that they voted for him - but that year, too many guys did it the same year and he got in - with these career stats:

18 Seasons 1884 6028 687 1692 324 45 28 734 29 35 931 277 .281 .378 .363 2190 103 0 0 10 55.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

There are a lot of similarities between Jim Rice, Dale Murphy, Andrew Dawson and Dave Parker. Rice is by far the best hitter, even after you adjust for Fenway. He is also quite obviously by far the worst base runner and fielder in the group. I don't think having none of them in the HOF is a bad thing, although all four are obviously better than some HOFers.

Re: Baseball HOF Results
 

I dont see how Andre Dawson didnt get it. He was my first baseball card!

EDIT: Lets not forget Pete Rose had 10 write in votes.