Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

With the insurgrence of Poker Bots such as WinHoldem, I am writing this post as I have come to the conclusion that Internet poker has been doomed since day 1. Moving the game from the felt tables of casino's to the internet was where it all went wrong. The problem is human nature, we are evil, cunning beings that will do anything for personal gain.

From the beginning of internet poker, people have been devising ways of beating the system. From the Card Mapper fiasco at Planet Poker, to Multi Accounts in MTT, to Team Bots Colluding through a 3rd party program on ALL major poker sites. Humans have found a way to alter and 'fix' the greatest card game in history without the need of skill that some spend years to develop. Why spend years perfecting your game when there are methods to guarantee a few thousand dollars every week?

Even programs like Poker Traker and Party Miner are just as unethical in my mind as a card mapper or poker bot. Why you might ask? Because not everyone involved in these games has the same access to these programs as you do. (I do not use ANY program) Data mining is just as evil as poker bots, IMO, because that information would not be avilable to you if you did not have a BOT collect the data for you! As well as poker tracker, you would not have that information readily available if that BOT did not collect it and transfer it to your interface. Well, you might say that these programs are readily available to anyone who googles the word poker program, and anyone can purchase it. But, when one googles poker program, one can find links to card mappers, poker bots, data trackers, and so on. What makes poker tracker ethical and poker bots unethical? What makes data mining unethical and colluding unethical? There is no difference whatsoever. If you brought a device into a casino and sat at a poker table collecting information on other players on bet amounts, frequency of aggression, and so on, I guarantee that device would be confiscated or you would be escorted out of the casino. If you brought in a device that could tell you what Player A or B does in given situations because you 'recorded' his actions in a previous hand that you were not involved in, the same outcome would occur. Having ANY device that is not available through the poker client and available to EVERY player is UNETHICAL. It is NOT a part of POKER, and the fact that poker tracker has come hand in hand with downloading a poker program is ludicris. Every player should be given the cards in front of them and the chips that they are willing to wager. THAT IS ALL. Using ANY outside device is unethical, IMHO.

The world of internet poker has made a turn for the worse. I never expressed my hatred of Poker TRacker or Data Mining until now, because people do not see the bigger picture. Internet poker, due to the acceptance of such foreign devices such as Tracker or Miner, is becoming more and more a computer based game and not a human based game. Soon, every internet player will be arming themselves with every possible device from card mappers, to bots, to trackers, to miners. If we do not take a stand somewhere, we can only allow ALL devices to be used. We must ban all devices or allow all of them to be used.

That is just my 2 cents. After this month, i will be withdrawing all my money from accounts and become a B&M player only. Good luck to all, and flame away if you must. But that is my opinion, and I hope I have made some people realize my point.

Playa

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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What makes poker tracker ethical and poker bots unethical?

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I am the one sitting in front on my computer deciding on what the best appropriate action to be taken place from what my PT is displaying to me.

On the other hand, the bot user is out of his house enjoying the 24/7 money he is obtaining by doing absolutely nothing.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

Your screen name is fitting.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

So is location

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

I would like to add that I am a internet player of 2 years.
Up until last week, I had never once felt that I had been cheated or played against someone who had an unequal advantage.
After visiting the WinHoldem site, reading the various posts about bots, and reading articles on internet poker bots and programs, my opinion has changed.
I am not going to divulge into the situation, but for the first time in 2 years, I knew something was up. I even posted last week in the SSNL whether anyone agreed with me. They all assured me that it was variance and no one can cheat, and if they could they would be cheating at higher levels. Well after today, I am 99% sure that at least 3 people at the table I was playing at were colluding through winHoldem. I could care less if anyone believes me or not.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

but because you have that device to give you an altered edge in decision making, you are able to come at your course of action in a more simple fashion. that in itself is just as unethical as having some program make the decsiion for you.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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that in itself is just as unethical

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No.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

Assuming, for the moment, that you're not trolling, I'll make one observation:

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If you brought a device into a casino and sat at a poker table collecting information on other players on bet amounts, frequency of aggression, and so on, I guarantee that device would be confiscated or you would be escorted out of the casino. If you brought in a device that could tell you what Player A or B does in given situations because you 'recorded' his actions in a previous hand that you were not involved in, the same outcome would occur.

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You do bring such a device into the B&M poker room every time you go there to play. So does every other player. It's called Your Brain.

Does the fact that some players have trained themselves to use Their Brain more efficiently than others, at least at the task of playing poker, give them an unfair advantage? I think your answer to that would be, "no." The player is simply making better (legal and ethical) use of whatever resources are available to him.

So far, I don't believe anyone has been barred from a Poker Room for using his brain. Sadly, the same cannot be said about the blackjack tables.

I believe, and I'm sure most others here do too, that a player using PokerTracker is simply making better (legal and ethical) use of the resources that are available to him than the player who chooses not to use Poker Tracker.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

I certainly believe that a program that does calculations that are impossible for humans to do, based on the current situation at the table, are unethical.

And if this includes GT+, PAHUD, whatever, then so be it.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

I've never played poker in a B&M casino but I imagine that if I brought in a notebook and started taking player notes I might get escorted from the building. Yet poker sites all have player note capabilities. These sites must be unethical!

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What makes poker tracker ethical and poker bots unethical?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am the one sitting in front on my computer deciding on what the best appropriate action to be taken place from what my PT is displaying to me.

On the other hand, the bot user is out of his house enjoying the 24/7 money he is obtaining by doing absolutely nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]
The computer will make the mathematicall correct decision based on the pokertracker stats with no mistakes. You will make a mathematical correct decision with some mistakes based on the pokertracker stats.
The pokertracker stats are not manualy calculated in your brain, the stats are computed artifically therefore pokertracker is a form of Artificial Intelligence just like a bot. Since player statistics is important; One could theortically say that a PT user play is 90% human 10% artifically?

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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I've never played poker in a B&M casino but I imagine that if I brought in a notebook and started taking player notes I might get escorted from the building.

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I've never played in one either, but I imagine not.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming, for the moment, that you're not trolling, I'll make one observation:

[ QUOTE ]
If you brought a device into a casino and sat at a poker table collecting information on other players on bet amounts, frequency of aggression, and so on, I guarantee that device would be confiscated or you would be escorted out of the casino. If you brought in a device that could tell you what Player A or B does in given situations because you 'recorded' his actions in a previous hand that you were not involved in, the same outcome would occur.

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You do bring such a device into the B&M poker room every time you go there to play. So does every other player. It's called Your Brain.

Does the fact that some players have trained themselves to use Their Brain more efficiently than others, at least at the task of playing poker, give them an unfair advantage? I think your answer to that would be, "no." The player is simply making better (legal and ethical) use of whatever resources are available to him.

So far, I don't believe anyone has been barred from a Poker Room for using his brain. Sadly, the same cannot be said about the blackjack tables.

I believe, and I'm sure most others here do too, that a player using PokerTracker is simply making better (legal and ethical) use of the resources that are available to him than the player who chooses not to use Poker Tracker.

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you misunderstood what i meant, and what on your own tangent. you did not use your own device to understand the meaning of the term device in my post.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What makes poker tracker ethical and poker bots unethical?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am the one sitting in front on my computer deciding on what the best appropriate action to be taken place from what my PT is displaying to me.

On the other hand, the bot user is out of his house enjoying the 24/7 money he is obtaining by doing absolutely nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]
The computer will make the mathematicall correct decision based on the pokertracker stats with no mistakes. You will make a mathematical correct decision with some mistakes based on the pokertracker stats.
The pokertracker stats are not manualy calculated in your brain, the stats are computed artifically therefore pokertracker is a form of Artificial Intelligence just like a bot. Since player statistics is important; One could theortically say that a PT user play is 90% human 10% artifically?

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yes, and having any % not your own is unethical IMO.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

I disagree with you Playa. All online players can have access to PT. Just because u don't know about it or can't afford it or choose not to use it, it's not anyone else's fault. It's like if I were at B&M and I wear sunglasses because I don't want people to get reads off me or so that I can see other people without them knowing I anm studying them......is that unethical? Everyone has access to sunglasses but not everyone chooses to use them. I know LOTS of people who have PT but still cannot win because their level of understanding of the game is not high enough to allow them to make the best possible decisions even with PT stats.

I've seen people at B&M take notes with notepads and pen.....is that unethical?

By your logic, someone who has a photgraphic memory is exploiting those who do not.I don't have photographic memory and so someone who does, has information not available to me.

And the rules of online poker allows for programs like PT....so it's case closed. They don't allow datamining anymore (Party)but still allow PT so that tells u that it is not unethical. I guess it's like steroids in sports....if MLB says steroids are allowed, then it's not cheating. If they say it's not allowed and a player uses it, then it's cheating. We're just playing by the rules.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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I've never played poker in a B&M casino but I imagine that if I brought in a notebook and started taking player notes I might get escorted from the building. Yet poker sites all have player note capabilities. These sites must be unethical!

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your sarcasm does not go without a point.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

I have to disagree with your title that internet poker was doomed from day 1. Quite the opposite - it is thriving and growing every day.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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If you brought a device into a casino and sat at a poker table collecting information on other players on bet amounts, frequency of aggression, and so on, I guarantee that device would be confiscated or you would be escorted out of the casino.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/parenting/images/300/pen_paper.jpg

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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And the rules of online poker allows for programs like PT....so it's case closed.

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I'm not allowed to believe something isn't ethical just because Party Poker believes it is?

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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you misunderstood what i meant, and what on your own tangent. you did not use your own device to understand the meaning of the term device in my post.

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I'll leave it to the clairvoyants on the board to devine what you "meant" to say. I simply responded to what you did say.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

a pair of sunglasses cannot help you make an educated guess at your opponents holdings based on hands played/ aggression/ steal%, etc. although your anology is close, it does not make total sense.

PT gives the user an unfair advantage over a player not using PT. as a user you must be able to atest to the times that PT has helped your bankroll.

just because party poker says you can use PT does not make it ethical. taking note on a notepad is not allowed in casinos, but allowed on the internet. the rule 1 hand 1 person is not enforced in online poker, does it make it okay to collude with another player?

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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Even programs like Poker Traker and Party Miner are just as unethical in my mind as a card mapper or poker bot. Why you might ask? Because not everyone involved in these games has the same access to these programs as you do.

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Not true. Everyone does have the same access to these programs. Just because you don't use them doesn't mean you don't have access to them.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

Playahater,

I won't answer alot of your points but regardless of your point of view on PokerTracker it is actually allowed by all the pokersites. They actually co-operate with the guys at PT to make their hand histories compatable.

So whether you consider it ethical or not it is legal and it is avaliable to everyone that wants it.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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Even programs like Poker Traker and Party Miner are just as unethical in my mind as a card mapper or poker bot. Why you might ask? Because not everyone involved in these games has the same access to these programs as you do.

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Not true. Everyone does have the same access to these programs. Just because you don't use them doesn't mean you don't have access to them.

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The problem comes about when you use these programs to compute information at a speed that is not humanely possible in order to make more educated decisions than others at the table.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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you misunderstood what i meant, and what on your own tangent. you did not use your own device to understand the meaning of the term device in my post.

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I'll leave it to the clairvoyants on the board to devine what you "meant" to say. I simply responded to what you did say.

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you are just being a nit. instead of being so close minded, why dont you read my OP with an open mind and have a discussion like a rational person. dont take everything you read to mean what you want it to mean.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

I think your problem is trying to compare live play with internet play. Apples and oranges.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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I think your problem is trying to compare live play with internet play. Apples and oranges.

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but it shouldnt be that way, and that is my real point.
online poker is supposed to bring the casino to you, not an altered defination of a casino.

dont know why Yo was at the end of my post, i took it out.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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you are just being a nit. instead of being so close minded, why dont you read my OP with an open mind and have a discussion like a rational person.

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So, a rational person resorts to name-calling when confronted with an argument he can't respond to in any other way?

Good luck in your B&M career. Watch out for colluders. The right index finger to the earlobe is the standard "raise me" signal.

Over and out.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

what is the difference if a tool helps u calculate agression etc or whether it helps u hide tells/get tells? It is an advantage that helps someone win if they know how to use it. Just bc sunglasses don't "calculate" anything doesn't mean it can't give u an edge.

And I have definitely seen people write on a notepad during play at BM. I never looked at what they are writing so I can't be sure if they are making notes on opponents but if it were not allowed, I am sure the Floor person would ask to see what they were writing.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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you are just being a nit. instead of being so close minded, why dont you read my OP with an open mind and have a discussion like a rational person.

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So, a rational person resorts to name-calling when confronted with an argument he can't respond to in any other way?

Good luck in your B&M career. Watch out for colluders. The right index finger to the earlobe is the standard "raise me" signal.

Over and out.

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you sir never responded with a rational arguement. you took a skewed defination of a term i used and went on your own tangent. you are nit-picking over little things that are inconsequential. and if you think nit is name calling, dont come to NJ.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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I've never played poker in a B&M casino but I imagine that if I brought in a notebook and started taking player notes I might get escorted from the building. Yet poker sites all have player note capabilities. These sites must be unethical!

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You absolutely would NOT be kicked out of a casino for this. Many players bring in notepads and make notes on what other players did (and their tendencies, etc.)

PT absolutely does a GREAT job of note taking and organizing. But it does not collect any data that you would not have access to in a B&M. (I will give you that you might get kicked out of a B&M for asking to see every players cards every hand)

Data-mining is completely different. I'll even agree that there is a grey area here. I happen to think it stops at Data-mining (you should not get HH's for hands you didn't play) and others will put that line somewhere else.

A on-line casino can have 'local' rules, just like a B&M can. If there is demand for a site that does not produce any HH's or show other players hole cards, I would guess one will eventually pop up. Personally I still feel there is a lower chance of getting cheated on-line vs. in a B&M (maybe I'm naive).

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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What makes poker tracker ethical and poker bots unethical?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am the one sitting in front on my computer deciding on what the best appropriate action to be taken place from what my PT is displaying to me.

On the other hand, the bot user is out of his house enjoying the 24/7 money he is obtaining by doing absolutely nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]
The computer will make the mathematicall correct decision based on the pokertracker stats with no mistakes. You will make a mathematical correct decision with some mistakes based on the pokertracker stats.
The pokertracker stats are not manualy calculated in your brain, the stats are computed artifically therefore pokertracker is a form of Artificial Intelligence just like a bot. Since player statistics is important; One could theortically say that a PT user play is 90% human 10% artifically?

[/ QUOTE ]

bingo

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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I've never played poker in a B&M casino but I imagine that if I brought in a notebook and started taking player notes I might get escorted from the building. Yet poker sites all have player note capabilities. These sites must be unethical!

[/ QUOTE ]

You absolutely would NOT be kicked out of a casino for this. Many players bring in notepads and make notes on what other players did (and their tendencies, etc.)

PT absolutely does a GREAT job of note taking and organizing. But it does not collect any data that you would not have access to in a B&M. (I will give you that you might get kicked out of a B&M for asking to see every players cards every hand)

Data-mining is completely different. I'll even agree that there is a grey area here. I happen to think it stops at Data-mining (you should not get HH's for hands you didn't play) and others will put that line somewhere else.

A on-line casino can have 'local' rules, just like a B&M can. If there is demand for a site that does not produce any HH's or show other players hole cards, I would guess one will eventually pop up. Personally I still feel there is a lower chance of getting cheated on-line vs. in a B&M (maybe I'm naive).

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Raymer was shown on TV writing notes during the WSOP ME.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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What makes poker tracker ethical and poker bots unethical?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am the one sitting in front on my computer deciding on what the best appropriate action to be taken place from what my PT is displaying to me.

On the other hand, the bot user is out of his house enjoying the 24/7 money he is obtaining by doing absolutely nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if I write a game theoretically optimal program which tells me to call/check/bet/raise/fold are you okay with me using that? As long as I'm the one clicking the buttons, it's okay in your eyes?

The OP is right in one sense. As soon as you allow a computer program to aid your play in any way, you let the floodgates open. The ethics of using a program after that point becomes a distinction in the mind of the person running that program. The majority of 2+2 is hypocritical in this sense. Poker bots are a big no-no yet everyone jumps in and buys Poker Tracker->Poker Ace->Party Mine->SNG Analyzer. What if Eastbay released a new version of SNG Analyzer which read hands in real time and gave recommendations? My guess is a majority of 2+2'rs would buy it without thinking twice.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

to people who advocate PT. please explain the difference, in your opinion, why using PT is ethical compared to using a BOT, which i would hope is unethical.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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The OP is right in one sense. As soon as you allow a computer program to aid your play in any way, you let the floodgates open. The ethics of using a program after that point becomes a distinction in the mind of the person running that program. The majority of 2+2 is hypocritical in this sense.

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Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

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Having ANY device that is not available through the poker client and available to EVERY player is UNETHICAL.

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What about a hand chart or an odds chart? That is not available on the party lobby so is that unethical to use? What about SSHE or TOP


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It is NOT a part of POKER,

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There will always be different variations of a specific game. And saying one variation is not valid simply because you are accustomed to a different form or poker is what is ludicrous.

Landscapes change in every sport/game. In boxing some matches are 12 rounds and some are 5. Some matches use specific gloves while others don't.

Poker also has these variations and different environments to play in. All of this will add subtle changes to the way the game is played. In hold em the 5/10 blind structure is different then 2/4. Just like there are speed SnG's and normal SnG's, and then B&M tourneys. All which are very different. No other form is more real then another though.

The landscape of internet poker is vastly different from B&M. Rules are different. Online I only have 15 seconds to act while B&M i can take several minutes. This doesn't mean that online poker is not "real" poker. It is just different. B&M I can muck my hand and no one ever gets to see it. I can't do this online, but that doesn't mean it is not "real" poker when someone looks up my hand history after the hand is over. Basically you can't compare B&M practices to online practices to conclude that a certain practice is unethical. They are two completely different landscapes. And poker is played differently in both places. Online you are allowed to use PT and PA Hud. This is a variation to B&M poker. This does not mean online poker is not "real" poker. Again it is just a different environment you are playing. You as a player just have to adjust with in that environment.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

Everything has to die out and some point, so yes, poker was doomed from day 1.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

baseball will never die.

Re: Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1
 

Neither will pirate ships. YARRRRRR, THIS THREAD SUCKS