Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

I fully expect to get flamed for this post, but I think it is necessary.


I lurk this board a lot, and have done so for a long time. I try to read most of the posted hands, and I make the occasional reply. This board has helped me play better poker, and I owe many of you a huge amount of thanks.
That being said, what the hell is wrong with some of you? How are you people winning money with this weak tight advice that I see in just about every thread? "Limp big suited broadways from MP with one limper". "Fold a suited Ace in the CO with 3 limpers because we might be dominated". What the hell are you thinking? Why are you telling others to play this way?


I'm afraid the majority of the new players think they are much better than they really are. Therefore, they feel they can overcome the "slight" loss in equity they give up by limping by allowing more players to see a flop cheaply. "I don't want to put another bet into the pot with these two big, suited, connected cards because the flop might miss me". What they don't seem to grasp is that by not raising they are giving away a tremendous advantage and allowing drawing hands that have no business in their pot to get the right odds to take one off and beat them.


Here is one from Ed Miller that you should be passing along: "Save pots not bets". Put in an additional bet/raise to win the pot. Don't fold on the river for one bet even though you might not have the best hand when the pot is large. It only takes a few correct calls to make up for the few bets that you lose when you are wrong.


The majority of the players at this level are not sharp enough to comprehend the playing style outlined in SSH. Use that to your advantage and attack the LAGs and TPP's in your games.


I play poker for a lot of reasons, but mostly to make money. You make substantially more money by playing an attacking style of poker at these limits. Go do it...now, and stop the weak tight crap advice.

I might be off base to write this type of rant, but the players on this board should know better. I'm writing this to remind players that a lot of peole read your replys, and take them to heart. I realize the best way to get better is to reply to posts without reading the other replies first, but if you are unsure of the quality of your reply let the reader know that. Put "grunch" at the top of your post or identify your response as speculative.



There are many good posters in this forum. If you want to get better at this game, read posts from players like Mr. Wookie, Eeegah, VoraciousReader, Gregatron, jaxUp, and Shillx. Compare their advice to yours, and improve.


Brian

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

serious? I remember when I used to make stating the obvious posts like this.

A good way to detect pedantic threads like this is the use of that damn Ed Miller quote: "Save pots, not bets." Such a platitude.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

You think I'm trying to show off? If I came across that way, I worded this poorly.

I wrote this hoping that new players and players like myself who lurk don't get caught up in the bad advice that continues to become the norm rather than the exception.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

This is a stage. Don't worry, we all go through it and it indicates the right of passage through the micros. Just put your LAG style on the backboard when you play at higher limits. Not continuating on every turn with overs not may seem weak tight, but it's good poker.

And ya, your post is not in the least bit explorative or inquisitive. It's purely authoritative, so ya, it's a showoff.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

Point taken, with humility.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

Heres you flame!

This is a micro limit board. Players dont start playing poker with all the knowledge you apparently have. They make -EV plays and generally dont understand why certain plays are better then others. So they play and read and post and learn. They dont need a seasoned pro like yourself to tell them they are stupid and are playing bad, they need to learn that on their own through experience. Telling them to limp with Ax suited after 3 limpers does no good for them if they dont understand WHY they should limp. You see a poster giving terrible advice, then address that poster in the that thread, instead of posting new threads with blanket statements.

Also you seem to think by being on this board that somehow makes a person 'know better'. Now I signed up here a long time ago and there was no poker knowledge requirement for a forum account, in fact all you needed was email. Has this changed? Are you now required to take some sort of poker test before you can get a forum account? You have KJs in MP3 with one limper. Raise, Call, Fold? Call - bzzzt you lose no forum account for you, go read SSH and come back, then maybe you can post on these boards!


In short - get over yourself.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I fully expect to get flamed for this post, but I think it is necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad you're preapred because I think talking about "weak-tight" play in a vacuum is pretty stupid most of the time. I think the creation of the phrase "weak-tight" has caused a lot of players to spew because they don't want to be called weak-tight.

Are there too many posts where people limp KQ in late position with 1 weak limper in front of them? Sure, but I see just as many posts that say: "I didn't want to call because it felt weak". As if "feeling weak" is a good reason to spew chips or make a dumb fold.

Just my opinion.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

I'm not going to argue with you at all. This is micro forum, and it is designed to learn. That is precisely why I advised players that were unsure if their responses were appropriate to identify them in their posts.

I have never held myself up to the quality of play of many of the posters on this board. I know that there is always somethin new to learn, and that I am not a perfact player. Nor will I ever be.

I do feel that the quality of the posts that are presented here is critical to the improvement of the players that will eventually move into the small, medium, and high stakes games over time. There is nothing wrong with posting an incorrect response as long as it is qualified as a grunch.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

Why don't you post here more?

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing wrong with posting an incorrect response as long as it is qualified as a grunch.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, I now have carte blanche to post misleading advice as long as I put "grunch" at the top?! Sweet! Screw you n00bs!

And when they come after me because I made them lose their entire BR, you've got my back, right, Preytar?

(This thread sucks. That wasn't even any fun.)

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

Probably because when I do I end up writing something like this. I have good intentions and I end up pissing people off.

By the way, LSU should have won.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

Come on. You know your post have value. Even if it is a shot at me, I think you write good stuff.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

Give the guy a little slack. He is trying to help, and frankly when I or another well established posters makes a post like this the chior comes out. When some unknown does it he gets flamed.

This board goes through ebbs and flows (I've been here about 2 years now so I know). Once it was a maniac's playground. Now it's Nitsville.

He did leave out a lot of quality posters. I won't mention them as I know that I will leave some off (the inherent danger/problem) -- but you are one boxlax. You often give advise better than I do.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

[ QUOTE ]
He did leave out a lot of quality posters. I won't mention them as I know that I will leave some off (the inherent danger/problem) -- but you are one boxlax. You often give advise better than I do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Group Hug!

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

One problem with your post was essentially blaming people for giving bad advise. It happens. We all do it sometimes -- I know I do. I think most times a thorough reader (even newbs) can figure out who is right. This is a marketplace of ideas, and I think we should let the bad advise compete with the good advise, have people explain WHY it is wrong, and everyone knows better as a result.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Give the guy a little slack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Frankly, I agree with his OP. I don't think it needed to be posted in this fashion, but, meh, it doesn't hurt anything.

My oh-so-subtle point is that you need to be very careful about proofing your posts, and making sure that you don't say something like, "It's ok to post incorrect advice as long as you...." It's never ok to post incorrect advice; it is ok to be wrong. (Do you see why? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

I do. And sorry to omit the names of so many quality posters including you.

I'l learn eventually...probably...maybe. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

You guys probably read davelin's last post in between your 2 answers...
Well timed post davelin!

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

[ QUOTE ]
That being said, what the hell is wrong with some of you? How are you people winning money with this weak tight advice that I see in just about every thread? "Limp big suited broadways from MP with one limper". "Fold a suited Ace in the CO with 3 limpers because we might be dominated". What the hell are you thinking? Why are you telling others to play this way?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing it's because the FAQ says that one of the best ways to improve is to read and comment on HH threads, and don't be afraid to be wrong. The theory appears to be that people of your obviously vast knowledge will dispute any incorrect advice in those threads, a discussion will ensue, and all involved might just learn something.

Of course, if in practice all that happens is somebody makes a general thread saying "everybody except a few posters gives lousy advice, only listen to those few", then no improvement is likely. Too bad, it seemed like such a good idea in the FAQ.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

I'm afraid this post is going to come off as self-centered. I'm taking the chance though.

You can nitpick here and there about the post, but overall OP made a pretty decent case.

However, he did get one thing very very very wrong. Please don't mention my advice in the same sentence as Shillx, Greg, jaxUp, etc. I am nowhere near the player any of these guys are, and to be honest I have been a bit intimidated about posting strat advice since I went green because I was afraid some of the newer folks would give it too much weight because of the little "m" flag. This is not false modesty, this is truth.
/thread hijack

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

I think I advocated comparing one's advice in a post to that of the aforementioned individuals.

I am not a poker snob. There are tons of great posts by relatively unknown people every day. I think every post has merit. Some are just inherently better. And before someone takes that last point the wrong way...I am not saying that mine are the best.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

I just don't know the point in the thread.

Obviously, no one is going to read and see a light bulb in their head. The advise is vague as hell and there isn't the slightest bit of authority behind it, so I really don't understand why you wasted your time.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to get better at this game, read posts from players like milesdyson. Compare his advice to yours, and improve.

[/ QUOTE ]
thanks but you shouldn't have

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

Heh, gotta say this: good points for the most part. However: responsibility to the responsible!

I don't understand the need to put the phrase "grunch" in any post--I assume that any response is sincere, subject to scrutiny, and possibly not perfect. Even posters like Sfer and Shillx, even Ed Miller himself--I examine their replies carefully and think about what they say. It's up to me as a player to determine if and why they're right. It's my responsibility, and being a strong player involves taking responsibility for my choices, not blaming someone else's advice. All replies are um, grunches (*shudders*, what a god-awful word!) as far as I'm concerned, no matter the post or post count. And all can be learned from.

We post. Sometimes we are glaringly wrong. Sometimes we are shiny and right. None of us are perfect though, and a bad response is just as valuable as a good one in that people can point out why a mistake was made.

Though I agree with a majority of your post, were it me, I would put it under individual hands ie "Fold a suited Ace in the CO with 3 limpers because we might be dominated" sounds bad to me because XYZ. Might open some debate, and those willing and able to learn will learn a lot more this way. In my non-professional opinion, that is [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

/grunch

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

[ QUOTE ]
All replies are um, grunches (*shudders*, what a god-awful word!) as far as I'm concerned

[/ QUOTE ]

You may be misunderstanding the concept of "Grunch"... it simply means you are posting your advice without reading any of the previous replies. It's not meant as an alert to readers that "I'm new so I don't know what I'm talking about...".

This comes from a classic post by "The Grunch" a year or so ago where he suggested this as a posting technique -- too frequently people will read previous responses to a strategy question and just rephrase them (maybe not even intentionally) when writing their own response.

So when you tag a response with "Grunching" you're indicating you have only read the original post and your response is fresh.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

[ QUOTE ]
/grunch

[/ QUOTE ]

NH. I deserved that. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

I really don't feel that this is necessary. Granted, I haven't read any hands today because I've been busy so maybe there has been a slew of these today, but the last few weeks have been pretty good I think. When people make the errors you're talking about they generally get corrected (or sarcastically aggreed with by miles).

Edit: Almost every post I make is a 'Grunch' since I like to think about a problem unbiased and I would hope that I would get corrected if I give bad advice. That's kind of the point of this board.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

I like your ideas.
One potential problem for newbies trying to put SSHE to work is the 'transfer' from tight play to the more aggressive style you mention.
When I try to get more aggressive I find I'm losing fast.
This can easily be a lack of experience, but I guess one issue for new players is that it can be hard to find that 'balance' or the 'proper' aggressive tactics.
I guess this is a learning curve that has to happen.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

I'd fold here. Villain clearly has the case T and our tens over aces boat is no good.
</weak-tight> [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I've only played months of poker, and my first weeks of lurking around here quickly turned me into a postflop LAG to the point where I almost never called (fit or fold, baby!). In general, it's always easier to defend aggressive play because of 1) giving opps worse odds, 2) protecting your hand, 3) taking the lead, 4) allowing opps to fold, 5) save pots, not bets, etc... all good things in a vacuum and great things if applied correctly.

However, some of the best postflop advice I've learned from this forum appeared weak-tight on the surface at first (at least to a relative newbie). But, after thinking about it and working through the hand, it's actually very good poker. I can't dig up any specific examples right now (at work), but a lot of Boz's posts come to mind where he challenges an "obvious raise" poster with "how is raising the flop protecting your hand?" "what hands are you protecting against?" "what hands are you trying to fold?" "why do you want a hand you are crushing to fold?" "why are you raising?" etc., etc.

I guess my point is that giving blanket weak-tight advice is obviously bad (as OP seems to agree), but sometimes the apparently "weaker" play on one street is the stronger overall poker play. I know it's helped my game to have this side of the discussion around.

Edit: Boz, I am in no means labelling/implying/calling you weak-tight. Just citing some occassions where I/others thought pushing the pedal was right, and you gave me/others the bozness.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

Why, I oughta...

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: Boz, I am in no means labelling/implying/calling you weak-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, all right then...see to it that you DON'T. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

[ QUOTE ]
serious? I remember when I used to make stating the obvious posts like this.

A good way to detect pedantic threads like this is the use of that damn Ed Miller quote: "Save pots, not bets." Such a platitude.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah man, but the OP is very right. I suck at poker but I know I'm not going to get any better following some of the advice here. A lot of it has the undertone "Be afraid of the rest of the table". We're always putting villains on monster hands when the whole point is the idiots will call you down with nothing. Thanks to Preytar for the excellent post, and, dude, the Miller quote might be a platitude, but it's a mantra that's going to make me money. You come up with better.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a stage. Don't worry, we all go through it and it indicates the right of passage through the micros. Just put your LAG style on the backboard when you play at higher limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, you're in the wrong forum. This is the micro forum. Here we want advice that will help us crush the micros. When we're ready to step up to the higher limits, we'll be experienced enough to know to become weak-tight like poppa.

Re: Stop the weak-tight madness.
 

Voracious, you have to give us some credit! We don't just read advice and think "I'll do that because that guy's made a lot of posts here". I have no idea who are the best players here and who aren't, and I don't care. I read the advice, weigh it up and see whether it's shone a light on the game for me. When a big name says "we're putting villain on X, Y and Z", noobs have to be saying "are we? Why?", not just nodding along. Isn't that what it's all about? How can I become a good player in a situational game if all I'm willing to do is follow advice slavishly without understanding it?