QQ w/ a wierd river decision
 

villain is a complete donk, he is super loose pf and pretty much the same goes for post flop. i have seem him get aggro w/ good hands, but hes the normal call down w/ tp or an underpair kinda guy.

50nl 3 handed (table just went short last hand)
effective stack 55
dealt to hero Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in SB

pf- button calls .5, hero raises to 2.5, BB calls 2, button calls 2.

flop (7.5)-J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
hero bets 6.5, BB calls, button folds.

turn (20.5)- 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
hero bets 13, villain calls.

river (46.5)-A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
hero...

i think i played the river right, but im not sure whats optimal here. the pot is huge and i only have ~30 left. who blocks and who c/fs and why...

Re: QQ w/ a wierd river decision
 

I feel kinda honored to offer my humble opinion to an "Old Hand" especially when he is Stu Unger and all [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I would block on the river. With him just calling on all streets and the uncoordinated board, I'm thinking he's holding maybe Jx or possibly 89suited (hey you said he was a donk). If he hit a set, I would think he would at least min raise you somewhere here. Same with AA or KK.

Re: QQ w/ a wierd river decision
 

Pot bet the turn! You don't want anyone sticking around with possible straight draw or overcards to your QQ.

Re: QQ w/ a wierd river decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pot bet the turn! You don't want anyone sticking around with possible straight draw or overcards to your QQ.

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u do realize that if i do this i will only have 23 behind in a huge pot and i will be commited. im not really worried about overcards and im not giving any draws the odds to hit...

Re: QQ w/ a wierd river decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
I feel kinda honored to offer my humble opinion to an "Old Hand" especially when he is Stu Unger and all [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

im a donk w/ a title, no need to be honored...

I would block on the river. With him just calling on all streets and the uncoordinated board, I'm thinking he's holding maybe Jx or possibly 89suited (hey you said he was a donk). If he hit a set, I would think he would at least min raise you somewhere here. Same with AA or KK.

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this is what i planned on doing, so its what i did. it got me to thinking though. i only get value out of KJ and QJ. i dont see him bluffing w/ a missed draw here, nor can i really fold for like 4 1/2 to 1 if he does push. this A only helps AJ and KQ, but it also removes the most likely hand to call a vb from hands im ahead of. who knows, im really bad at straying for my plans for hands in big pots...

Re: QQ w/ a wierd river decision
 

And the results were.......?

Re: QQ w/ a wierd river decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
And the results were.......?

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who cares about results? they arent important.


ok if u really want to know he folded to my bet, but thats irrelevent...

Re: QQ w/ a wierd river decision
 

Stu, I agree Pot bet the turn.

Most likely you have the best hand if he calls, and you will get plenty of calls from A-J, K-J, Q-J even, you've only built the pot.

On the river, I check and call a reasonable bet, because it only helps, A-J and A-10, unless he's a complete donk calling down with A-K or A-Q but you're in good shape. You want to just check because, you only want to bet the river if it's going to make you money and most likely if you bet it too hard you are going to only get called by a better hand.

Possibly make a small bet on the river for value, that way even if he has second pair only or just 10's even he calls a small bet, because he thinks he has too.

Re: QQ w/ a wierd river decision
 

I think blocking for $20+ and folding to a raise is bad. Given we only have $30 left, I value bet and call a push. I think c/f-ing is somewhat weak, but maybe I'm wrong. Against a maniac, I go to the felt with this hand.

If he's passive with a lone J here, is value betting for $20/calling a push optimal? Very often I think our QQ is good here, especially against a maniac. If he is very aggro, c/c is good too, I guess.

Re: QQ w/ a wierd river decision
 

Bet more on the turn, bet the rest on the river. You won't have odds to fold to the chance he's carrying an ace given stacks.

Re: QQ w/ a wierd river decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pot bet the turn! You don't want anyone sticking around with possible straight draw or overcards to your QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

u do realize that if i do this i will only have 23 behind in a huge pot and i will be commited. im not really worried about overcards and im not giving any draws the odds to hit...

[/ QUOTE ]

You want to be committed against a donk when you have an overpair. You want all the chips in while you're ahead. Pot the turn, then it's an easy lead all-in on the river for maximum value against hands you beat. Potting the turn is definitely not about forcing out draws, it's about getting the maximum $ in the pot when you're ahead.

Re: QQ w/ a wierd river decision
 

If this guy cannot get away from 1 pair and would've raised flop with a better hand, push the turn.

Re: QQ w/ a wierd river decision
 

I'm check folding here. It's hard to know what complete donks are thinking sometimes, but you are ahead of QJ,KJ,98s and behind AJ,KQ,AA and KK (the last too seem a little less likely since you said he'd been aggresive with good hands).


That was a scary river for the hands you are ahead of. I wouldn't expect a bet from a worse hand. He'd probably be as relieved as you just to check it down. If you were up against someone capable of bluffing here, it would be a tougher call but I think a bet means you are beat.

Edit...

OK so now I've looked at the results and you bet out the river and he folded? I guess a bet protects your hand from a bluff, but if you thought that was a possibility why not just check call? I don't see a worse hand calling here. Check calling makes more when he bluffs and loses the same, when he doesn't.

An interesting hand. I'm not saying you got it wrong, but that's what I would have done if I had 10 minutes to think it over.

Re: QQ w/ a wierd river decision
 

I really like a check here on the river. An agro donk will bluff at the pot when the ace comes very very often enough to make the check call profitable. It the best way to let him make a mistake. So many times when maniacs miss there 1 outer straight draw or there set draw with an under pair they will bluff the scare card on river. Check call.