Give me a range to push here.
 

Gimme a push range considering:

1. At 80/160, Donk in UTG +1 (3780) just limp/called raise by MP (2020) who had 1300 after raise to 720. Then, on 10s 9d 8c board, check called AI with Kd10d and lost to KQo.

2. Blinds 100/200 in about a minute.

HAND: 80/160

Donk, MP2 (1940)
Hero, BB (1900)

Folds to donk who limps (pot: 400), folds to hero in BB with XX. What's my range for pushing?

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

A9o+, A8s+, 44+, KJo+, KTs+

Anything less, I'd check and aim to get all-in with anything good on the flop.

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

^^^
I'd shove decent Aces, Kings, and PPs, otherwise shove the flop if you hit.

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

Any two looks fine if they are going to limp fold often.

What would they limp? Low pairs, SC and bad aces.... any pair over 8's donimate their limping pp, and two cards over T should have a good shot.

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

Without having looked at the other responses, and taking into consideration that I'm a nit and I suck (although my ROI is now very close to 0, so I'm getting better)

I'd assume he'll limp up to 40% of hands and that you have relatively little fold equity. So I'd want a hand that has decent equity against that range. KTo seems to be the lowest hand that beats a 40% range, so I'd shove with 77+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QJo.

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

I'm re-reading this now... is there one limper or two? I'm more obliged to push over two by the way for the extra dead money.

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

67s+, 78+, T8+, ATBroadway, All PP. K8+, Any ace.


Something like that. Yeah.

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

Only one limper. I think the key to this question is what percent of hands that he limps with does he call. I'm thinking like about 70%ish.

Barry

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Only one limper. I think the key to this question is what percent of hands that he limps with does he call. I'm thinking like about 70%ish.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two key considerations:
1) What % of hands does he open limp from MP with?
2) What % of those hands call if we shove?

From there, we need to a bunch of simulations using a bunch of shoving ranges. We want to maximize FE and our equity against his calling range to make the most $. It would take some time to figure out mathematically, but it is not too difficult to do.

Edit: To add that shoving ATC is probably profitable here. The question is what range is most profitable.

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

[ QUOTE ]
67s+, 78+, T8+, ATBroadway, All PP. K8+, Any ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

That shoving range is too wide against a calling station in my oppinion.

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

even donks only limp 40% or so, usually, if he calls 70% of that I would want a hand in the top 30% or so myself. Sure we may have thin edge with broader than that, but we dont have much fold equity, we would need to win the hand, and I am sure your the best guy at the table right? so lets preserve some edge... something like top 25-30%, thats something like :
44+,A2s+,K8s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,A5o+,KTo+,QJo,JTo

4Card

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

[ QUOTE ]
even donks only limp 40% or so, usually, if he calls 70% of that I would want a hand in the top 30% or so myself. Sure we may have thin edge with broader than that, but we dont have much fold equity, we would need to win the hand, and I am sure your the best guy at the table right? so lets preserve some edge... something like top 25-30%, thats something like :
44+,A2s+,K8s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,A5o+,KTo+,QJo,JTo

4Card

[/ QUOTE ]

Card,

Considering I haven't played an MTT in a week and limped with QQ UTG a few hands earlier (and was immediately followed by 4 limpers), best player at table is a stretch
[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

Anyway, I had J9s, which I thought was very borderline. I almost shied away from it, I pushed, he snap-called with K10o. Very marginal, IMO, didn't like it afterwards, but I'm slowly starting to see the more nuanced errors of my ways.

Barry

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

Remember he's not limp calling top 40%, he's limp calling 10-30% normally.

A limp is an exclusionary range calculation.

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Remember he's not limp calling top 40%, he's limp calling 10-30% normally.

A limp is an exclusionary range calculation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The limper, IMO, is calling a large percent of what he limped with. I'd say you are getting about 150 in FE once you assume he is a "level 1" player (which, judging from the hand I posted about him, seems fairly clear).

Barry

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

kq aj+ 77-kk. i might check aa but only if hes more lag than lp. otherwise ill just take a flop and go from there

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Remember he's not limp calling top 40%, he's limp calling 10-30% normally.

A limp is an exclusionary range calculation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The limper, IMO, is calling a large percent of what he limped with. I'd say you are getting about 150 in FE once you assume he is a "level 1" player (which, judging from the hand I posted about him, seems fairly clear).

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

Not what I meant. What I meant is that you can't apply "limping top 40%" of his hands to his range. You need to subtract his raising range.

If he limps 40% of his hands, and raises 11% of them, then the range of his hand is between the top 89% and 60%, discounting a bunch of monsters under the bed.

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

This is sensible, MJ, but surprisingly when I stove it, it doesn't change the answer very much.

Just going with top 40%, I suggested that KTo would be the minimum shoving hand (which, not to be too results-oriented, turned out to be exactly what villain had). But when I subtract a bunch of stuff from the top of his range, the minimum shoving hand turns out to be QTs, and Barry's shoving range is almost the same.


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.571% 46.38% 02.19% 1115069520 52602434.00 { 88-44, A9s-A2s, KTs-K3s, Q5s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, ATo-A4o, KJo-K7o, Q8o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 1: 51.429% 49.24% 02.19% 1183800428 52602434.00 { QTs }

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

you leave out so many factors here...
what are the stakes ... $1 buy in or $30+? is this a SNG or a 450 person MTT??? how many players til the $$$?

i don't really know what this guy is thinking of pushing for without a premium holding... the guy is horrible and will probably call a wiiiiiide range.

take a free flop and wait for a big hand since he has you covered and could stack you, unless u're certain he'll fold to a bet that big...

i wouldn't push much... A10s+ (but me personally AQs+), AKo, and probably QQ+...if it was before the $$$, i would have a super tight range and not wanna donk out with 0 equity for my 60 minutes spent to get to 80/160 blinds.

after the money bubble, i'd push 77+, AXs, K9s+... and if you really wanna play loose add some big queens that might give you 40/60 equity against a raggy ace or underpair.

don't have flopitis... play a pot w/ him...

i'd for sure check preflop, lead a half pot value bet and cbet the turn if cold called depending on what fell...and find out where i'm at. 2/3 times he misses the flop anyways..... and you might just save yourself from a horrible bad beat story. like hellmuth, i hate the all-in move w/out the nuts or close to it.

is my range toooooo nitty? i don't think so... i either place first or generally don't money at all and i'm usually busted by a a donkey call (when i have the bigger weaker holdings AQ AK etc... .)

Re: Give me a range to push here.
 

[ QUOTE ]
you leave out so many factors here...
what are the stakes ... $1 buy in or $30+? is this a SNG or a 450 person MTT??? how many players til the $$$?

i don't really know what this guy is thinking of pushing for without a premium holding... the guy is horrible and will probably call a wiiiiiide range.

take a free flop and wait for a big hand since he has you covered and could stack you, unless u're certain he'll fold to a bet that big...

i wouldn't push much... A10s+ (but me personally AQs+), AKo, and probably QQ+...if it was before the $$$, i would have a super tight range and not wanna donk out with 0 equity for my 60 minutes spent to get to 80/160 blinds.

after the money bubble, i'd push 77+, AXs, K9s+... and if you really wanna play loose add some big queens that might give you 40/60 equity against a raggy ace or underpair.

don't have flopitis... play a pot w/ him...

i'd for sure check preflop, lead a half pot value bet and cbet the turn if cold called depending on what fell...and find out where i'm at. 2/3 times he misses the flop anyways..... and you might just save yourself from a horrible bad beat story. like hellmuth, i hate the all-in move w/out the nuts or close to it.

is my range toooooo nitty? i don't think so... i either place first or generally don't money at all and i'm usually busted by a a donkey call (when i have the bigger weaker holdings AQ AK etc... .)

[/ QUOTE ]

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