Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

I'm going to be reference'ing ed miller's preflop chart that was compiled by OhGeeTee. Link is

http://home.nyc.rr.com/nycgrip/preflop.pdf

The flop hit me and I had 9 outs (flush draw), and pot odds were 13:1 on the flop, where on the chart should I be looking at to figure out if I should call or fold? i'm looking at ed miller's break-even pot odds in SSHE and for 9 outs it's 4.1:1.

Also did I play this hand correctly? Players were pretty loose-passive (had about 30 hands each on them and around 40-60 VPIP). Since I had the 2nd best hand I was worried about someone having it since it was possible because the players were loose. Am I thinking about this the right way? Any comments you guys want to make?

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.02/$0.04
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, CO calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (10SB, 5 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, CO calls, Hero calls <font color="aaaaaa">(13:1)</font>, SB calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7.5BB, 5 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, CO folds, Hero calls <font color="aaaaaa">(9.5:1)</font>, SB calls.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (11.5BB, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Results:
Final pot: 17.5BB

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

raise the flop

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

Flop is a raise. If you read SSHE, then you should be aware of juicing flush draws and the free card play.

There is definitely room for a raise on the river.

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

do you guys mean reraise?

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
do you guys mean reraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Guy bets the flop, you raise.
Guy bets the river, you raise.

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

ops read that wrong,

also can you guys help me out on counting outs and odds in general and on how to use that pre-compiled chart?

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
ops read that wrong,

also can you guys help me out on counting outs and odds in general and on how to use that pre-compiled chart?

[/ QUOTE ]

you wont find many chart lovers here ...

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

Well I'm starting out, isn't a part of poker knowing correct odds of when to call/fold when you don't have the odds, ect?

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well I'm starting out, isn't a part of poker knowing correct odds of when to call/fold when you don't have the odds, ect?

[/ QUOTE ]

isn't there a beginners forum??

this isn't that ...

there are a ton of intro books to hold'em ... get one

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

I have GSHE, SSHE by Ed Miller, and WLLHE by Lee Jones. I read though all 3 of them at least once. I was curious as to how the pot odd chart that someone put together can be read that's all. I thought the guy basically just pulled everything that ed miller said and threw it on charts.

I'm starting to apply some of the concepts that ed miller taught in those books. If this is the wrong forum to ask that then I'll see if I can get this thread moved. I just though it was a place to start.

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have GSHE, SSHE by Ed Miller, and WLLHE by Lee Jones. I read though all 3 of them at least once. I was curious as to how the pot odd chart that someone put together can be read that's all. I thought the guy basically just pulled everything that ed miller said and threw it on charts.

I'm starting to apply some of the concepts that ed miller taught in those books. If this is the wrong forum to ask that then I'll see if I can get this thread moved. I just though it was a place to start.

[/ QUOTE ]

stick with Jones ... if you've justed started Miller's book will get you into trouble

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

raise the flop

call the river

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have GSHE, SSHE by Ed Miller, and WLLHE by Lee Jones. I read though all 3 of them at least once. I was curious as to how the pot odd chart that someone put together can be read that's all. I thought the guy basically just pulled everything that ed miller said and threw it on charts.

I'm starting to apply some of the concepts that ed miller taught in those books. If this is the wrong forum to ask that then I'll see if I can get this thread moved. I just though it was a place to start.

[/ QUOTE ]

stick with Jones ... if you've justed started Miller's book will get you into trouble

[/ QUOTE ]

also ... all of those books cover pot odds ... just read and reread

and look at hands you play (away from the table) and when you have a draw ... and count

or just look at any of the posts here and if someone if drawing ... count the outs for yourself

it's a pretty basic skill and if you don't know how you really shouldn't play untill you understand it

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

[ QUOTE ]


isn't there a beginners forum??

this isn't that ...

there are a ton of intro books to hold'em ... get one

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong.

While there are certainly people playing the micros who are not beginners, and the level of discourse here often gets way past beginner concepts, most beginner on-line poker players start at the micros. If you don't care to participate in helping out the new folks don't, free board etc. But don't jump on a guy asking for information most of the people here used when they were coming up.

OP - Google is your friend, there are tons of sites that will have the charts you are looking for. Find a site that presents in a way that makes sense, print it out and keep it by your computer. Depending on how many hands you play and how fast you learn you won't be using them for more than a month or two.

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


isn't there a beginners forum??

this isn't that ...

there are a ton of intro books to hold'em ... get one

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong.

While there are certainly people playing the micros who are not beginners, and the level of discourse here often gets way past beginner concepts, most beginner on-line poker players start at the micros. If you don't care to participate in helping out the new folks don't, free board etc. But don't jump on a guy asking for information most of the people here used when they were coming up.

OP - Google is your friend, there are tons of sites that will have the charts you are looking for. Find a site that presents in a way that makes sense, print it out and keep it by your computer. Depending on how many hands you play and how fast you learn you won't be using them for more than a month or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude - i'm not "jumping" on anyone

there is a beginners forum and it deals with stuff like that (perhaps it's not there anymore ... it was when I started)

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

there are a few concepts at work in this hand besides pot odds.

A flush flop with the case ace is a bet or a raise most every time.

If you miss the draw on the turn you can still bet for value with a big pot or you can try to get a free card.

Calling the bet may appear cheaper but it costs you money more often than not.

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

Lets set up a situation. You are at a .05/.10 limit game. You have As and Js and there are 2 spades on the board. The turn card is on the board with only the river left to come. You have 9 (13 minus 4) outs to make your flush. Look down the left side of chart and see the odds are 4.1 to 1 against you hitting the flush. There is 0.80 in the pot, you will be getting 8 to 1 on your 0.10 bet, bingo you make the bet knowing you are getting almost twice the odds needed to be profitable.

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


isn't there a beginners forum??

this isn't that ...

there are a ton of intro books to hold'em ... get one

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong.

While there are certainly people playing the micros who are not beginners, and the level of discourse here often gets way past beginner concepts, most beginner on-line poker players start at the micros. If you don't care to participate in helping out the new folks don't, free board etc. But don't jump on a guy asking for information most of the people here used when they were coming up.

OP - Google is your friend, there are tons of sites that will have the charts you are looking for. Find a site that presents in a way that makes sense, print it out and keep it by your computer. Depending on how many hands you play and how fast you learn you won't be using them for more than a month or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be fair, OP is asking about pot odds, which is a pretty basic concept we don't tend to run through in here. It should be pretty obvious in this hand that hero is never folding flop and turn.

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flop is a raise. If you read SSHE, then you should be aware of juicing flush draws and the free card play.

There is definitely room for a raise on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

am i reading this wrong or what. he did raise the river and didnt have the ability to raise more. i think it was played fine except for the flop

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop is a raise. If you read SSHE, then you should be aware of juicing flush draws and the free card play.

There is definitely room for a raise on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

am i reading this wrong or what. he did raise the river and didnt have the ability to raise more. i think it was played fine except for the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop is a raise. If you read SSHE, then you should be aware of juicing flush draws and the free card play.

There is definitely room for a raise on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

am i reading this wrong or what. he did raise the river and didnt have the ability to raise more. i think it was played fine except for the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

evidently I've confused 2 people. I'm saying I like his river raise.

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop is a raise. If you read SSHE, then you should be aware of juicing flush draws and the free card play.

There is definitely room for a raise on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

am i reading this wrong or what. he did raise the river and didnt have the ability to raise more. i think it was played fine except for the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

still missing it i think sorry


Edit: got u now just read ur other post sorry

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

[ QUOTE ]


Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.02/$0.04
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, CO calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (10SB, 5 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, CO calls, Hero calls <font color="aaaaaa">(13:1)</font>, SB calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7.5BB, 5 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, CO folds, Hero calls <font color="aaaaaa">(9.5:1)</font>, SB calls.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (11.5BB, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Results:
Final pot: 17.5BB

[/ QUOTE ]

In this hand you should know you are going to want to see the turn and the river, you are drawing to a nut flush and a straight flush, at least 10.5 outs. Prior to the turn you only need the pot to contain 1.6 times your bet to be profitable, if the turn misses you, and it did you will now need 3.6 times you bet to be profitable in the long run. Most of the time the pot will be offering good odds to draw to a flush when you need one card.

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

raise the flop.
re-raise any when your draw comes through on the river. make an unhappy call if you are 3.

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

overcalls guys overcalls.....

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
overcalls guys overcalls.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Pfah:

Everbody folds to your raise: 0bb
Two folds and the original bettor calls: 1bb
One call, two folds: 2bb
One call, one fold, one call: 3bb
Two calls, one fold: 4bb
Three calls: 5bb

vs.

One overcall: 1bb
Two overcalls: 2bb

In half the scenarios after you raise you're doing better than you can possibly do by calling, and one more you're tying, and the last 4 possibilities taken together are easily more likely than the first two.

QED ERE

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

[ QUOTE ]

To be fair, OP is asking about pot odds, which is a pretty basic concept we don't tend to run through in here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? I have personally written a half dozen or so extensive posts explaining pot odds to micros over the years. Most people who have been around a while should be able to say the same thing. Likewise pf charts, bankroll questions, table selection, etc.

Maybe the beginners forum has gotten more popular and/or the library has removed most of the need, but it's always been the intermediate guys who have taken care of this stuff for the beginners. They have traditionally been eager to pitch in given that they were asking similar questions a relatively short time ago, and the act of articulating something helps the teacher explore concepts they may still be applying imperfectly themselves.

I'm not addressing this to you personally by any means. I was just surprised by your comment. I haven't spent a lot of time here lately, but I caught a whiff of the unmistakable stench of that stupid HUD vs "real read" argument almost immediately (must be version 1874896075 by now), so things can't have changed that much. And the traffic is much lower than it used to be, so it's not as if the place is being overrun by beginners.

I'd suggest that intermediate posters have a little more patience. Go look through some of your own early stuff if you're in need of motivation to pitch in. Everyone gets to the point where they'd prefer to spend their time exchanging feedback with more advanced posters, but it's disrespectful to all those who spent time helping you along to shortchange a person with honest questions, however basic, provided they have a good attitude.

Though, of course, that doesn't mean anyone should stop making fun of people who whine about their 30 BB "downswing." Fun is fun. And we all need a kick in the ass sometimes.

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

You would think that some of the other posters were never beginners. Sheesh! 2p2 has become less and less friendly.


[ QUOTE ]
The flop hit me and I had 9 outs (flush draw), and pot odds were 13:1 on the flop, where on the chart should I be looking at to figure out if I should call or fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

You probably have more than 9 outs. You are pretty likely to win if an A comes. Anyway, you can look up 9 outs in the bottom of the chart (either side) to get a basic idea of the odds that you will need.

The chart says 4.1:1 with one card to come and 1.9:1 with two cards to come.

You clearly have odds to at least call the flop bet. You are getting 13:1 and you only need 4.1:1 to see one more card.

I would recommend ignoring the 'turn'/'2 cards to come' numbers until you understand the 1 card odds.


[ QUOTE ]
Also did I play this hand correctly? Players were pretty loose-passive (had about 30 hands each on them and around 40-60 VPIP). Since I had the 2nd best hand I was worried about someone having it since it was possible because the players were loose. Am I thinking about this the right way? Any comments you guys want to make?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the many responses that you should have raised the flop. I'd be raising here more for value than to get a free card. With 5 players still in and a loose table you are unlikely to get the free card. On the flop 3 players have already put in a bet. They are very likely to put in a 2nd bet if you raise. This is good for you because you are likely enough to win this hand that this is a good outcome - you put in 1 extra bet and your opponents put in at least 3 (assuming BB, UTG, and CO call).

You are very, very likely to have the best hand on the river. What beats you? K3, 23, 83, KK, 22, 33, 88. That's not a lot of hands. Only 22, 33, and 88 are likely holdings. No one probably has 22 or 33 because they would have played the hand more aggressively. You should raise the river because you'll get paid by a lesser flush MUCH more often than you'll lose to a full house.

Feel free to PM me if you have more questions and don't want to get flamed by the jacks on this board.

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

timeonepointzero, Nice job on the chart, I know it is a lot of work to get it sorted out, the text in SSHE has you going in circles at times. Are you connected with the guy who made the chart? Can you explain the meaning of the column labeled R4 in LP Loose? or is there a key for C4, C3 and C2? C2= Call if 2 otherwise fold? I actually contacted Ed Miller about an inconsistency in the chart on AQo and 99. The chart says in MP raise either hand against a single raise yet in LP he recommends calling. His response was it was glitch and he would recommend 3 betting both situations ie bet against a raise and a reraise.

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

holy [censored] guys ...

just because my answers were short doesn't mean I'm ripping into the guy [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
not once did i call the guy a retard or even say anything negative about his 'person'

i gave him simple direct ...

get some books ...
--&gt; he has books

--&gt; told him it's best not to play until he understands such a basic concept as pot odds (covered in full detail in each of the books he listed)

told him to stick with Lee Jone's book ... (much better for someone just starting than Miller's)

???
what is better ... do the work yourself or have someone telling you how they understand basic concepts

also ... i just checked ... that beginner's forum is still there (i read it for a while, prior to posting)

AND - if the someone could be put off and discouraged by my post here ... well, perhaps they should post here at all ... some of the posters are pretty rough (and many are not nice at all) ... but seriously, this is an online forum and words can be taken many many ways - I don't think filling your posts with a bunch of [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] after every word you type is a very good solution

i've never personally see anyone on this forum explain basic (non-hand related) concepts .. I have seen such answers directed to the sources where a player can learn the basics themselves

but whatever [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]


[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Pot Odds and Flush Draws
 

Alright, I have a basic understanding of how pot odds work, but I was just curious about that chart that someone made that's all. Ed Miller does goes talk about pot odds BUT IMO he really doesn't do a throughly job of explaining or the thought process for someone new. After reading a bunch of other books I finally understood and it clicked.

As for the chart, I did not make it nor do I have any connections with the guy. I found it a while ago (on here I think), but yeah C2 is call if 2 or more, ect, ect. I think the most important thing regarding the chart is that it's great to reference every now and then but DO NOT follow it roboticly (after 2000-3000 hands, I can play without it), pay attention to how the players in your tables play and then play accordly. Obviously do not deviate too much (understand which hands are trash, ect, ect). I think Ed Miller covered everything else really well regarding how to play pre-flop/flop/turn/river.

That's my opinion, if anyone thinks there's anything wrong let me know.

I'm also open to harsh crititism as long as it's useful. The thing with my hand was that I didn't see the backdoor straight draw which someone pointed it would of been more correct if i had of raised flop.

Thanks for the responses guys/gals.