Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

50-75 level, effective stacks 4800 to start...

utg limps, utg+1 limps, I limp with A4cc on the button, bb (Ansky) checks.

utg two hands prior just doubled me up with J9 vs my AK getting it all in preflop. He is obviously bothered in some manner from that hand. The limp from him is an instalimp.

utg+1 is about a 60 year old man, has played 0 hands prior to this hand. No other reads other than that.

BB is Ansky, enough said.

Hand: Ac4c

Flop: Ad 2c 3c

All 3 check, I bet 225, Ansky asks how much I have behind, I say 4500. He then makes it 850, utg folds, and now utg+1 makes it 1850. (Pot now 3225)

What is the best play here?

Edited to add pot size.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

You're not gonan take the pot down w/o showdown, and you dont have the best hand right now, but super strong draw, and theres a guy that you can invite in behind for even more money...

sounds like pretty straightforward call. Old guy will underbet the pot on the turn too, so we can call profitably there too.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

im pretty sure its shove or fold ray.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

You think we have any fold equity? We're getting 2:1, if ansky shoves i dont think we care, with the $1800 of old guys money in there and maybe the rest of his stack and our draw to chop/to the nuts.

Or is it because we woudn't get paid off when we hit a club

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

folding would be pretty bad, i think

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

theres going to be 4k in the pot and we have 3k behind, im pretty sure hes gonna shove most/all turns, so we will only get one card here (and if hes nitty enough might even fold a Club turn)...

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

call hope it gets 3 way it's more +EV that way you need to hit to win and when you hit you beat both.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

i think i just shove flop and hope for two callers, and if i lose its 11amish and i can go to bed.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

Call, fold if the board pairs to a non ace.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

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call hope it gets 3 way it's more +EV that way you need to hit to win and when you hit you beat both.

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Well regardless of what we do i dont think ansky is calling without 45 or a set, and i doubt it matters what we do, i really dont want to have to fold the turn, why not just get it in now.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

I'd probably shove so that I can go back to sleep if I lose [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

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Call, fold if the board pairs period.

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call >>> shove > fold

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

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Call, fold if the board pairs period

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I can't fold if another A comes off.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Call, fold if the board pairs period

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I can't fold if another A comes off.

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Then get better?

The A is a worse card than a T.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

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im pretty sure its call quickly or call slowly.

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Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

I agree with call the flop.

How do people feel about a pf raise? UTG+1 is the epitome of old, live nit, who's raising a premium hand 100% of the time, UTG is spewing with ATC so isolating him in position with 60 BBs behind would be great, and raising charges like the best player at the table to see the flop rather than letting him in for free.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

I agree it's a call, but folding >>> shoving

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
The A is a worse card than a T.

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Are you just giving him A2,A3?

If he holding 22,33 then you have 10 outs to a better boat and the straight flush and he may give you the odds to call, and there is the chance he flopped a straight (small).

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Then get better?

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I know this has been said many times, but you really are a prick. How about explaining your reasoning so I can see the flaw in mine?

You are good at poker, try getting better at life.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The A is a worse card than a T.

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Are you just giving him A2,A3?

If he holding 22,33 then you have 10 outs to a better boat and the straight flush and he may give you the odds to call, and there is the chance he flopped a straight (small).

[ QUOTE ]
Then get better?

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I know this has been said many times, but you really are a prick. How about explaining your reasoning so I can see the flaw in mine?

You are good at poker, try getting better at life.

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Relax, you hinted yourself that even though the A is pretty meaningless, the fact that it improves your absolute hand value makes it harder for you to fold it. Which is silly. So get better.

Nothing personal or insulting.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

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Relax, you hinted yourself that even though the A is pretty meaningless

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I view the A as narrowing the flop 3-bettor's hand range (makes 22,33 way more likely), which I think gives us more boat outs (while unfortunately killing the [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] outs, except for the 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] out s), not ZOMG!!! trips!!#@!#!, I should have been more clear myself

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

Are we calling hoping to induce Ansky to jam so the old guy jams so we can call and have pot odds to win a huge pot? If not, I don't understand the call. Ansky is never calling behind us, he's either jamming (with a set or a straight) or folding. If a club hits the turn, I can't believe we're getting paid off unless someone else also has a flush, which happens almost never. We're getting less than 2:1 to call the old guy, with no implied odds IMO. It's also more than 1/3 of our stack to call.

I think the old guy's range is mostly 22 and 33 with a slight chance of A2 or A3 (hasn't played a pot, just put in a small pot-building raise over a C/R). Ansky was in the BB, he could have anything, including a set or a straight. Especially with Ansky, who did C/R the flop after all, still to act behind us, I think this has to be a fold.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

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Ansky was in the BB, he could have anything, including a set or a straight. Especially with Ansky, who did C/R the flop after all, still to act behind us, I think this has to be a fold.

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When Ansky gets all-in with AA vs KK he actually is a 90% favorite when you include the "Ansky is in the pot, therefore he'll win" factor into the calculations.

Saying he's never calling behind is silly.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

UTG+1 has A2, A3, 22, 33

thats about it

Therefore, we call. If Ansky shoves, the old guy will call, and we gladly call. If Ansky calls, excellent.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Ansky was in the BB, he could have anything, including a set or a straight. Especially with Ansky, who did C/R the flop after all, still to act behind us, I think this has to be a fold.

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When Ansky gets all-in with AA vs KK he actually is a 90% favorite when you include the "Ansky is in the pot, therefore he'll win" factor into the calculations.

Saying he's never calling behind is silly.

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I can't think of a single hand that he would call behind with. What would it be?

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

Calling may not be the best play. We are only gettin 2:1 on our call and we don't know what Ansky is going to do.
We don't know if Ansky will reraise and if the old guy calls.

Bruce

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

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Calling may not be the best play. We are only gettin 2:1 on our call and we don't know what Ansky is going to do.
We don't know if Ansky will reraise and if the old guy calls.

Bruce

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what?

If we call and Ansky raises and the old calls thats generally really good for us because we always have enough equity to stick it in and have it be +EV.

If Ansky folds, whatever, re-evaluate turn. Shouldn't be too difficult since we know what old guy has and old people don't know how to price you out of draws.

If Ansky raises, the old guy is always calling because he has 22 or 33 and sometimes A2 or A3

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

If we know Ansky will reraise and old guy calls we have an easy call.

What happens if we call and Ansky folds? We're getting a lousy price on our call and we'll probably have a difficult turn decision to make if a club doen't come. Believing that old person will bet too little on the turn, thus giving
us a reason to call if Ansky folds doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Bruce

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

If Ansky folds then we'll likely have an easy turn decision because we know what UTG+1 has and because hes old and likely to play poorly on the turn.

Also, even if Ansky folds behind us, we're getting more than enough odds to call.

We are 38% against 33, which is his strongest hand against us.

Call is clearly the best option

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

Doesn't Flatting the flop turn our hand faceup?

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

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Doesn't Flatting the flop turn our hand faceup?

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to Ansky, probably, to old guy, no way [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

I don't understand why people say folding or calling is better than pushing. You are 42% against a straight, 39% against a set, and 54% against aces up. You have any combo draw crushed. If it is 3-way allin, you have to be in good shape. If Ansky folds, you get pot odds.

Pushing is not hugely cEV+, but I can't see how any play is better. Calling and folding some turns is ridiculous.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why people say folding or calling is better than pushing. You are 42% against a straight, 39% against a set, and 54% against aces up. You have any combo draw crushed. If it is 3-way allin, you have to be in good shape. If Ansky folds, you get pot odds.

Pushing is not hugely cEV+, but I can't see how any play is better. Calling and folding some turns is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because calling does exactly what shoving does -- except it lets you make a decision with more information (and therefore a better decision) on the turn.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

Betgo,
A combo draw isn't in his range. His range is at least two pair or better. Calling is better than shoving because when we call we put less money in when we're behind.. not rocket science.

(I said shove first time I heard this hand [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] ).

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

Calling and folding some turns is far from ridiculous, Betgo.

For example, we call, Ansky folds.

Turn is 3s. He Pots or Shoves or whatever. We fold [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are we calling hoping to induce Ansky to jam so the old guy jams so we can call and have pot odds to win a huge pot? If not, I don't understand the call. Ansky is never calling behind us, he's either jamming (with a set or a straight) or folding. If a club hits the turn, I can't believe we're getting paid off unless someone else also has a flush, which happens almost never. We're getting less than 2:1 to call the old guy, with no implied odds IMO. It's also more than 1/3 of our stack to call.

I think the old guy's range is mostly 22 and 33 with a slight chance of A2 or A3 (hasn't played a pot, just put in a small pot-building raise over a C/R). Ansky was in the BB, he could have anything, including a set or a straight. Especially with Ansky, who did C/R the flop after all, still to act behind us, I think this has to be a fold.

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Ansky's kind of unimportant here. He's folding a lot here. Whether we shove or call, he's going to fold or play. I guess he's not playing on with two pair. I guess. I don't know how he plays a set or straight.

Our hand may be face up but against old guy's range and Ansky's pf cr-ing range in a limped pot in BB against a button flop steal, I think we're +EV whether we call, Ansky shoves, old guy shoves and we call, Ansky calls and we see the turn in position with the option to fold.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

I think I agree with calling but I don't think calling makes a threeway allin any more likely than shoving; ansky's not changing whether he shoves based on whether you did - he's either very strong and sticks it in either way or he isn't and folds either way, because the old guy has to have a big hand (two pair+, with a set+ more likely).

Also, we have the A and 4, so there is exactly one combo draw possible (6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], edit - maybe 75 also). Old guy isn't making that small check-coldthreebet for a third of his stack with it, and if ansky has it (and the old guy has 2 pr+), we're not in that great of shape, since in a three way allin our 4 is killed, and either way two clubs are dead.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

evg, if the ace pairs then we probably continue on a retardedly small bet, which honestly he's likely to make with 22, 33 or A2/A3. On a 2/3 probably not.

But yeah, calling > shoving > folding.

The interesting part is if we think it's +EV to continue on a 4 turn.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

13 outs to the nuts, 3 outs to a chop, big pot (4800+) and ~3k behind i think means we stick it in on a turn 4.

Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

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live nits folding their sets because they're sure you have a straight i think means we stick it in on a turn 4.

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Re: Turning Stone 550 ESPC, Bad Spot with Huge Draw
 

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live nits folding their sets because they're sure you have a straight i think means we stick it in on a turn 4.

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However there are a good percentage of nits that always think players under 25 years old are always full of [censored].