Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

Playing at resorts in Indiana when the following situation comes up.

Heads up at the Turn. Player A puts out a bet. Player B folds. Player A flashes his cards to player C, then tosses them in the muck. Player D grabs the cards and flips them up. Dealer gives a little smile (him and player D know each other). I give a confused look, dealer looks at me and says "Do you have a question?" in a not so nice tone. Appropriate response?

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

Call Floor, in which case Floor will probably give him a warning.

Note to self... Dealer just cost himself some tokes from me for the rest of the down.

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

"I understand the 'Show one, show all' rule. But I was under the impression that it was the dealer's responsibility to enforce it, not that of a player at the table."

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

And then, If the dealer looks at you when you win a big pot & you don't tip...

Look at him and say, "Do you have a question?"

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

"Yes, could you please call the floor?"

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

You freaking nits! All of you.

Yes, I know the letter of the law is that Player D should hand the cards to the dealer, and let HIM turn them up. But in this case, what's the freaking difference?

Anyone who complains about this is someone who just looks for things to complain about. No harm, no damage, no threat, no possibility of trouble...but it's a chance to bitch about something, so we should all scream about it.

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

That is rediculous for anyone to grab someone elses cards and do that. There is nothing that the floor could do besides warn them though.

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

Somebody did that to me once. I was making a bluff at the flop that worked and one of the other players at the table took my hand out of the muck and flipped it over for everyone to see. He then claimed that he thought that everybody has to see mucked hands. Of course, this was an obvious angle shoot since he didn't point it out until my hand.

I didn't quite go berserk. Regardless, I won the tournament and busted the angle shooter in the process.

As for your situation, I don't call the floor. No more tips from me though.

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I know the letter of the law is that Player D should hand the cards to the dealer, and let HIM turn them up. But in this case, what's the freaking difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm the resident SOSA nit here (getting much better, thank you) and I don't think I've ever heard that the player is allowed to grab another player's cards to hand them to the dealer. AFAIK there's no good reason to touch another player's cards. Even requests like "fold me if I don't come back from the bathroom in time" make me uncomfortable.

I would say that most dealers are really bad about enforcing SOSA though. I saw a guy at the Horseshoe Tunica this week say, in a clear audible voice, "I'd like to see your hand," at a time when he was entitled to. Dealer mucked it all, claimed not to have heard it. Grrr.

(Which brough up an interesting point -- does that revive the mucked hand a la IWTSTH? I would imagine not -- SOSA is not an annoying IWTSTH request, so shouldn't be penalized as such. But the dealer said it would revive the mucked hand.)

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You freaking nits! All of you.

Yes, I know the letter of the law is that Player D should hand the cards to the dealer, and let HIM turn them up. But in this case, what's the freaking difference?

Anyone who complains about this is someone who just looks for things to complain about. No harm, no damage, no threat, no possibility of trouble...but it's a chance to bitch about something, so we should all scream about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

YTF (and all),

It's kind of interesting this thread is going on at the same time in Home poker:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...=0#Post11563004

(I hope that autolinks, this is the first time I've tried it.) If one gets too zealous with this, there seems some possibility of trouble. I'd guess it's proportional to the number of drinks imbibed, however.

Shane

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You freaking nits! All of you.

Yes, I know the letter of the law is that Player D should hand the cards to the dealer, and let HIM turn them up. But in this case, what's the freaking difference?

Anyone who complains about this is someone who just looks for things to complain about. No harm, no damage, no threat, no possibility of trouble...but it's a chance to bitch about something, so we should all scream about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I kind of see it as a sign that the dealer doesn't really know how to control a game. The dealer just letting this go can bring into question game integrity.

No dealer should ever just let some idiot take cards that aren't his out of a muck and flip them over. I'd wonder what else this dealer just lets slide by.

b

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You freaking nits! All of you.



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's nitty to not want other players turning over cards. Just as I don't want other players grabbing my chips, grabbing chips in the pot, playing with the community cards, etc..., there has to be some boundaries. Yes, he was entitled to see that hand, but not in the manner that he saw it.

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

[ QUOTE ]
And then, If the dealer looks at you when you win a big pot & you don't tip...

Look at him and say, "Do you have a question?"

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's kind of interesting this thread is going on at the same time in Home poker

[/ QUOTE ]

That situation is completely different. In the Home Poker thread, action was not complete when the guy not in the hand flipped over someone else's cards... Here, action was complete and the dealer would have shown the cards if he was asked.

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

A very similar situation happened at my table a couple months ago.

A player getting pushed the pot quickly flashed his cards to the player next to him. Both me and the guy to my left (the one who lost the pot) saw this. (the dealer didnt) The winner tossed his cards in and as the dealer was going to muck them the losing player grabed and tabeled them.

The dealer just kinda looked at the player in shock, and immediatly called the floor. I quickly jumped in and stated the the winner had in fact flashed the cards to the other player, and the dealer was a little relieved.

However, even knowing this, the floor warned the losing player and stated that if he did it again he would get a 24hr ban.

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You freaking nits! All of you.

Yes, I know the letter of the law is that Player D should hand the cards to the dealer, and let HIM turn them up. But in this case, what's the freaking difference?

Anyone who complains about this is someone who just looks for things to complain about. No harm, no damage, no threat, no possibility of trouble...but it's a chance to bitch about something, so we should all scream about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would have offended me most here was the dealer's comment. I don't think it's so nitty to say politely without making it into a contentious issue that players shouldn't handle other players' cards. But I would have been really pissed off at the dealer.

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I know the letter of the law is that Player D should hand the cards to the dealer, and let HIM turn them up. But in this case, what's the freaking difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm the resident SOSA nit here (getting much better, thank you) and I don't think I've ever heard that the player is allowed to grab another player's cards to hand them to the dealer. AFAIK there's no good reason to touch another player's cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, this seems like a pretty good reason. Are you going to call it cheating? Well then, I call the flash of the cards to begin with cheating. It's certainly no worse than that.

Let's say those cards are headed toward the muck and the dealer isn't stopping it. If it gets there they're mixed in forever, and you have a right to see them. So you look at them. If you think it's nitty to want to look at the cards, it's equally nitty to say he can't look at the cards.

I'd give the dealer the benefit of the doubt. He might have just been acknowledging that the cards should indeed have been turned over (in case you were wondering why they were turned over.) He probably thought that rather than WHO should have turned them over.

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You freaking nits! All of you.

Yes, I know the letter of the law is that Player D should hand the cards to the dealer, and let HIM turn them up. But in this case, what's the freaking difference?

Anyone who complains about this is someone who just looks for things to complain about. No harm, no damage, no threat, no possibility of trouble...but it's a chance to bitch about something, so we should all scream about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would have offended me most here was the dealer's comment. I don't think it's so nitty to say politely without making it into a contentious issue that players shouldn't handle other players' cards. But I would have been really pissed off at the dealer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the dealers question is what bothers me most about it.

b

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

Is it appropriate to tell the dealer, "If anyone besides the dealer touches my cards, they are pulling back a bloody stump"

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

I agree totally with youtalkfunny - this forum is out-of-control nitty

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

[ QUOTE ]
And then, If the dealer looks at you when you win a big pot & you don't tip...

Look at him and say, "Do you have a question?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, this seems like a pretty good reason. Are you going to call it cheating?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I'm just going to call it antisocial behavior that's considered out of bounds among poker players and will get you thrown out of the casino faster than showing your next 20 hands to your neighbor and turbomucking them.

Again, I'm as big a fan of SOSA as anyone else on here. I wish that dealers would enforce it better instead of this, "I didn't hear the request," nonsense. (In fairness, I've never dealt and I know they have many other things to focus on while running the game.)

But the only way I can see you possibly ever getting away with touching the mucked cards would be if you saw the guy intentionally mucking quickly and you could stick out your hand to stop them without reaching across the table (e.g., in the 1-seat). Then if you immediately released the cards and let the dealer do her job, you might get away with it. I doubt it, but if everyone knew the opponent was being a jerk to avoid SOSA, maybe so.

Ordinarily, no matter how right your cause, touching mucked cards is more -EV than foregoing the information. Just ask the dealer to see, then tell the floor away from the table what's going on and let them enforce it if the dealer won't.

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

I hate this kind of crap but i've kind of gotten used to it. I recently moved from san diego to los angeles and the poker etiquette here is ridiculous. The people here are animals. No respect for anyone else at the table. They'll grab at your cards, shoot angles, even grab at your chips sometimes, like if you're slow to post your blind. Yesterday one guy was even stacking the chips of the person next to him because a big pot was overflowing into his part of the table. Animals! There was a time when i'm sure people were killed for less than that. Maybe we should bring those times back.

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The people here are animals.
....Animals!

[/ QUOTE ]

Do they put you on monkey tilt?

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's kind of interesting this thread is going on at the same time in Home poker

[/ QUOTE ]

That situation is completely different. In the Home Poker thread, action was not complete when the guy not in the hand flipped over someone else's cards... Here, action was complete and the dealer would have shown the cards if he was asked.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point was that the guy in that case probably thought the action was over (or made another ill-informed decision). I know in *this* case action was over, it didn't matter, etc...

But it just opens up a huge can of worms. What if someone doesn't realize something and decides to flip cards over? or someone sees someone else doing it, thinks it's cool, and doesn't quite understand all the rules? Or mishears or hears just part of the player's words. Say something like 'I think I might have to fold here', someone hears fold, thinks the hand is over, and flips the guys hand over. Sure, original player shares some of the blame, but it's a situation made a lot worse by the grabbing player.

Or (I can't remember how the rulings have went, so maybe this isn't an issue), but I've heard about hands being pushed forward, and then the player realizing he had a winning hand or a split pot. Again, it might depend on the venue (and stakes?) whether someone can grab their hand there and table it but if that's allowed, the grabbing player took something away from the original player.

I agree, no harm in the original case described above. But there is room for harm if people are allowed to grab other's cards, chips, whatever. I wouldn't like that just because of the problems that might arise if we start letting players turn other's cards over--there's no advantage for players to do that, and reasons for them not to be able to.

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

OK, it seems that almost everyone agrees that a player should not touch the cards in the muck. Now, how do I deal with the dealer's "rude" comment in an appropriate manner? Do I say something at the table (calmly of course) or do I just get up and talk to the floor. Or, as youtalkfunny says, should I quit being such a god damn nit.

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

Eh, I'd let this one go. I've been in enough confrontations in my life that resulted from some sort of misunderstanding, I don't need to send out an open invitation for more. Usually rude people are that way for a reason. If someone's consistently rude, nothing I say or do will change it, so why get involved? On the other hand, usually I've just caught someone at a bad time or on a bad day or just at a particular nanosecond where synapses didn't fire properly and things didn't come out as intended. I know I've certainly been indavertently rude more than a few times in my years.

Yeah, dealer was rude, based on your particular view of how it went down, but considering it as an isolated event, I don't think it's anything to stress over. To do anything but shrug and move along is -EV.

Now... had it been my table, I'd have been very clear that ain't nobody flipping over no cards 'cept me and the intended recipients. I run a casual friendly game, but I get way serious way quickly if someone touches the stub or muck. Those are mine... MINE!

Re: Guy flips up opponents cards (Conversation with Dealer)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree totally with youtalkfunny - this forum is out-of-control nitty

[/ QUOTE ]

what are you guys talking about? He "gave a confused look" and the dealer instantly got an attitude.