KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on flop
 

I'm the chip leader by a pretty nice margin with 40 or so remaining in PS $10 180 pp tourney (pays 18)...Villan seems pretty loose (few hands ago he played 2 4 suited from EMP in a raised pot and got it all in on flop with middle pair and flush draw (he beat 99 by catching flush on turn)

How is my play here? Is 4X too little pre with position vs a loose player? Do I instacall the push here?

PokerStars Game #10729851400: Tournament #54364342, $10+$1 Hold'em No
Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2007/07/02 - 12:50:28 (ET)
Table '54364342 20' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: --- (3185 in chips)
Seat 2: --- (8403 in chips)
Seat 3: Hero (24272 in chips)
Seat 5: --- (4425 in chips)
Seat 6: --- (7847 in chips)
Seat 7: villan (17512 in chips)
Seat 8: --- (8204 in chips)
Seat 9: --- (7555 in chips)

All post $25 ante
---: posts small blind 200
---: posts big blind 400

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hero on button [Kh Kd]
villan: calls 400
4 folds
hero: raises 1200 to 1600
2 folds
villan: calls 1200


POT: $4,025

*** FLOP *** [9c 9s 6c]
villan: checks
hero: bets 4800
villan: raises 11087 to 15887 and is all-in
hero: ?? 11087 more to call

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

You're ahead of his range, no? I say call, especially w/ the odds you're getting at this point.

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

fold, you over bet the and he shoved anyway... 20BB, left. Just fold.

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

tomek...even with the previous hand where he pushed on a draw?

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

Insta-call. This looks totally standard to me. The overbet looks like a bluff to some people and they might come over the top.

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

I cant image folding this to a loose/donk in 180 men donkament.

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on flop
 

PF is okay. Super easy insta-call his push

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

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tomek...even with the previous hand where he pushed on a draw?

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Sry when I read this last night, I read it as AK. I call but I don't exactly like it.

1st hand, he pushed on a draw and pair, aggressive gets most hands to lay down. He's basically a coinflip with anything but a set or a better flushdraw. Don't think this instantly makes him a loose donkey, not saying he's not a donkey, just that one hand isn't enough evidence for me.

Not one person has put this guy on a hand. Everyone is like "oooh overpair instacall." what are we expecting to see? A naked 6 everytime,lol. I think this is a flushdraw with an over, or FD with gutshot most of the time, worse PP some of the time, and the 9 some of the time. Don't ask percentages, I suck at math.

Cliffnotes: misread hand as AK, I call with KK, but I think we are flipping a coin.

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

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Not one person has put this guy on a hand. Everyone is like "oooh overpair instacall" which is absolutely correct given stacks:pot ratio when the flop was dealt

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Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

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which is absolutely correct given stacks:pot ratio when the flop was dealt

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I'm relatively new to this, can you please explain your reasoning? there is 4k in the pot when the flop is dealt, we are playing for another 12k and thus pot commited vs another big stack no matter what hits? Seems absolutely retarded to me.

Edit: On a side note, why are we overbetting the flop? Anyone think about checking this flop?

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

don't see reason to check this flop...if I had AK and missed I would bet it same (maybe a bit less) and villan should know that...would he push with any pair or a flush draw if he puts me on an overbet C-bet steal? I have what looks like a great flop for KK with a villan who doesn seem to mind getting nuts...I need a strong reason to fold here even though it is a critical spot chipwise

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

Any other hands that opp played you may have noted? That 2 4 hand, did he CR as well?

In reality I'm probably calling, and further calling this guy an idiot for calling my raise with T9s or 78 suited and rivering me.

The more I think about this hand, the more I think it's a fold. Why is it our nature just to assume people are bluffing with nothing?

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

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don't see reason to check this flop...if I had AK and missed I would bet it same (maybe a bit less) and villan should know that...would he push with any pair or a flush draw if he puts me on an overbet C-bet steal?

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then call... you gave him the image you wanted and are in the spot you wanted.

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

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Why is it our nature just to assume people are bluffing with nothing?

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Because if you didn't defend sometimes or you did assume the worst everytime you were raised, you would be weak and a target and lose badly.

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

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Because if you didn't defend sometimes or you did assume the worst everytime you were raised, you would be weak and a target and lose badly.

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lol... call every raise don't get run over, will never get bluffed, but you'll be broke.

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

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don't see reason to check this flop...if I had AK and missed I would bet it same (maybe a bit less) and villan should know that...

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How and why did you come to this conclusion? If you think he's a donkey than he really doesn't think much about anything, if you think he's a thinking opp do you think he's stacking off on a bluff?

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

Tomek you're wrong, and at this point you're just trolling, which is pretty sad in a strategy forum.

You have to call, this could be any PP, expecting you to have 2 high cards. I'm not saying he can't have a 9, but it's more unlikely than say if the board was QQ6. It could also be 87, a flush draw...this is a snap-call. It's not close...it's not close to being close, you absolutely have to call here every single time or you're just lighting money on fire. This is not my opinion on the hand, it's a fact, and if anyone doesn't understand/think it's a call then that's a pretty serious leak in your game that you need to address.

edit: Oh yeah, and one of the good reasons we bet the flop is so he'll push over our bet as a bluff thinking it's just a cbet. If we check, then he bets and we push and instead of getting his whole stack we only get the cbet.

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

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edit: Oh yeah, and one of the good reasons we bet the flop is so he'll push over our bet as a bluff thinking it's just a cbet. If we check, then he bets and we push and instead of getting his whole stack we only get the cbet.

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Sweet, than everything happened as planned.

Results?

EDIT: I'm not trolling, especially since this is a strategy forum, I don't think just saying "put it in he's a donk" is very indepth analysis of the situation. And analyzing the validity of folding isn't exactly just stoopid or wrong.

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

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I think this is a flushdraw with an over, or FD with gutshot most of the time, worse PP some of the time, and the 9 some of the time. Don't ask percentages, I suck at math.

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never said anything else... so your flipping a coin as to what he has. We dominate PP, flipping with flush draws, and getting crushed by a 9.

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

tomek...i'm not so much disagreeing with you but play gets so loose at these that I've seen villans push with 22 in this spot...kinda skews your read when you see some of the stuff people do...calling is out because I can't see folding if he bets out the turn...

A fold is no unreasonable at all but I want to make sure I have a good reason first

results and unanswered strategy question
 

cooler but he had A 9 suited...don't love his play from EP limp calling 4X from the chip leader but he got rewarded nicely...

A better strategy question which no one really addressed is my preflop raise...is 4X too little with another big stack limping in? Preflop I wanted him in but is this the wrong mindset?

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

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tomek...i'm not so much disagreeing with you but play gets so loose at these that I've seen villans push with 22 in this spot...kinda skews your read when you see some of the stuff people do...calling is out because I can't see folding if he bets out the turn...

A fold is no unreasonable at all but I want to make sure I have a good reason first

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Completely agree, it comes down to the situation. If you think that my range for his CR is valid, (FD with over or gutshot or SD, lower Pair or Nine). Than we are calling in a 50/50 spot. We are flipping a coin to be a massive chipleader or to be basically busted. If we fold, we are still in good shape in contention.

Re: results and unanswered strategy question
 

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cooler but he had A 9 suited...don't love his play from EP limp calling 4X from the chip leader but he got rewarded nicely...

A better strategy question which no one really addressed is my preflop raise...is 4X too little with another big stack limping in? Preflop I wanted him in but is this the wrong mindset?

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Sorry to hear this, he's a retard for calling with A9o, OOP. Once again poker... all skill.

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

Tomek...one thing though...if I had him on a draw I would have no qualms about pushing...as blinds get higher the swings are crazy and having an enormous stack is worth the risk of him drawing out...I personally could only fold here if I felt I was outright beat...really appreciate your input sir!

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

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Tomek...one thing though...if I had him on a draw I would have no qualms about pushing...as blinds get higher the swings are crazy and having an enormous stack is worth the risk of him drawing out...I personally could only fold here if I felt I was outright beat...really appreciate your input sir!

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My pleasure, I hope I wasn't coming off as a d*ck. I'm not, and like i said in several spots in this thread, I call as well. Maybe now I stop and at lease think about folding in a similar spot.

OT: SSNYC, You play anywhere in the city? I live in queens.

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

I'm down in NJ...play AC at the Borgata a decent amount though with kids it's tough! Your comments were great but I do disagree that if I think he has a big draw I should fold/call...as stated always the money is in the first few spots and folding huge pots when you are ahead is not getting us to the big cash!!!

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

Ok I can live with that, I just wanted to point out that this is very rarely AA or a 9. The problem we all have (me most of all probably) is that I remember the 1 time it's a 9, but forget the other times when it's like QJo and I just think "lol ty for the monies" and don't ever think about the hand again.

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

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Ok I can live with that, I just wanted to point out that this is very rarely AA or a 9. The problem we all have (me most of all probably) is that I remember the 1 time it's a 9, but forget the other times when it's like QJo and I just think "lol ty for the monies" and don't ever think about the hand again.

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Yeah...add to that this sort've hand only ever gets posted on 2P2 if villian had hero beat [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

snapcall plz

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

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Tomek you're wrong, and at this point you're just trolling, which is pretty sad in a strategy forum.

You have to call, this could be any PP, expecting you to have 2 high cards. I'm not saying he can't have a 9, but it's more unlikely than say if the board was QQ6. It could also be 87, a flush draw...this is a snap-call. It's not close...it's not close to being close, you absolutely have to call here every single time or you're just lighting money on fire. This is not my opinion on the hand, it's a fact, and if anyone doesn't understand/think it's a call then that's a pretty serious leak in your game that you need to address.

edit: Oh yeah, and one of the good reasons we bet the flop is so he'll push over our bet as a bluff thinking it's just a cbet. If we check, then he bets and we push and instead of getting his whole stack we only get the cbet.

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QFT

but also remember that IT'S A 10/180. i'm hardly EVER laying down KK on a board like this vs. a villain w/ that description.

Re: KK late $10 180...as chip leader facing loose big stack push on
 

bc its a $10 tourney against insane people, i think 5-7x against this guy is fine; in higher buyins , more than 3x is most likely wrong, bc people arent limp callin with hands like a9 or limping with a9 at all