If I could just play JJ as well as BBB does
 

I've had JJ 7 times so far in June and won with it once. Down 30 BB with JJ. (I know variance/bad play etc. etc.)

I am posting this one though because I know I had opportunities to play it better and wanted to see where you guys would have differed.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Raised to isolate villain. I have no good reads because villain is 33/33 after only 9 hands. So who knows. We know he isn't shy preflop though. Even though I can't really put villain on a hand here I am thinking probably TT+, ATs+, AJ+
Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls.

Here is question one. Do you think I should raise the flop and fold to a three bet?
Flop: (9.40 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Well the turn may play in his range. Am I behind here often enough to fold the turn?
Turn: (5.70 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Well we hate this river and pot is 8.7:1 ???????
River: (7.70 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font> Hero ????????

Re: If I could just play JJ as well as BBB does
 

If you raise the flop and fold to a 3bet, you're damn close to having proper implied odds to draw to a 2 outer on the turn. Combined w the risk of being outplayed by AK from a player who knows where his raise button is, I don't like that plan. I think you played well, but I think you can fold that river. Now you beat nothing.

Re: If I could just play JJ as well as BBB does
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raised for value because I had a top 5 starting hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP. Other than that agree with wookie. Some consideration can be given to calling the river for information, but if villain is going to be around for a while better to let someone else pay for it, and if he's not going to be around a while the information is not worth much.

Re: If I could just play JJ as well as BBB does
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raised to isolate villain. I have no good reads...

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] You raised for value. Why would you a) want to isolate with a hand as strong as JJ, and b) isolate an unknown? Yeah, he's 33/33 over 9 hands, but it's not unheard-of for a player to be dealt 3 good hands in one orbit.

Re: If I could just play JJ as well as BBB does
 

fold...the read is not established. You are only hoping for stupidly played underpairs

Re: If I could just play JJ as well as BBB does
 

Yeah it's partly for value. But I don't particularly think JJ is a great multiway hand either. Based on that, reduction of the field/isolation is my preferred outcome. If it were a strong multi-way hand just going for overcalls would be better eh? Better stated for my fellow nits I might have said "raised for value and reduction of the field" in my original post.

Would you raise/fold the flop?
Would you fold the turn?
Call or fold the river?

Re: If I could just play JJ as well as BBB does
 

I think the attempt to get to sd is the best bet.

Re: If I could just play JJ as well as BBB does
 

[ QUOTE ]
But I don't particularly think JJ is a great multiway hand either.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is false.

Re: If I could just play JJ as well as BBB does
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I don't particularly think JJ is a great multiway hand either.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is false.

[/ QUOTE ]

OT, but: What's the difference between false and wrong? (esp. when not used in a mathematical/programming context)

Re: If I could just play JJ as well as BBB does
 

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/3199/whiteflaglf1.jpg

OMG, NO MAS, POR FAVOR

Re: If I could just play JJ as well as BBB does
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I don't particularly think JJ is a great multiway hand either.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is false.

[/ QUOTE ]

OT, but: What's the difference between false and wrong? (esp. when not used in a mathematical/programming context)

[/ QUOTE ]

false = not true
wrong = not right [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I think they mean the same thing here though.

Re: If I could just play JJ as well as BBB does
 

I like how you played it. If you're building a big pot preflop with JJ (which I think is good against unknowns) you should not be looking for reasons to fold. Just let him bet so he doesn't slow down with AK, and you don't lose more bets against bigger overpairs. River is close, I prob pay it off to gain information, and it can't be that bad against an unknown.

Re: If I could just play JJ as well as BBB does
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/3199/whiteflaglf1.jpg

OMG, NO MAS, POR FAVOR

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the pole was a slit and it was a sandy vag....

I think we all know where my mind has been.

Re: If I could just play JJ as well as BBB does
 

[ QUOTE ]
But I don't particularly think JJ is a great multiway hand either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against 3 opponents (all VPIP of 30% for ease), you have 51% equity- not bad return on the 25% you are putting in

Re: If I could just play JJ as well as BBB does
 

Yes. Somehow I convoluted my communication throughout this thread. Certainly preflop JJ is strong. Multi way that strength is substantially set value. Once I miss the flop and overcards appear it loses value quickly. Most of my comments about the value of the hand have been made while considering the post flop action. This because I was looking for evaluation of post flop play.

Saying "Raise to isolate" pre flop was not correct. That was poor on my part.

What is interesting about this entire thread is that so many seize on and respond to my mis statement but only Wookie has really addressed the questions I intended to ask. Which were: a) Would raising the flop and folding to a three bet have been a better play? b) Was the turn call OK? c) Call or fold the river?

So, while I got the answers I was looking for from Wookie, my take away from this thread is if I want to learn something I need to work on communicating the questions better. (FWIW the rest posted after Wookie did so they may have been just effen with me anyway. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img])

Re: If I could just play JJ as well as BBB does
 

[ QUOTE ]
(FWIW the rest posted after Wookie did so they may have been just effen with me anyway. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img])

[/ QUOTE ]

Not effing with you, but when UTG (Wookie) raises the rest of the players (everybody else) should either raise or fold. Since there was nothing to add to Wookie's analysis, we had to find something else to pick at.

Also, and not for nothing, this isn't a very interesting hand. As Wookie said, raise/folding the flop would be ridiculous, and your river decision is super-easy.

Finally, when you open up like this:

[ QUOTE ]
I've had JJ 7 times so far in June and won with it once. Down 30 BB with JJ. (I know variance/bad play etc. etc.)

I am posting this one though because I know I had opportunities to play it better and wanted to see where you guys would have differed.

[/ QUOTE ]

...my Whinedar (TM) goes off. "I lose with JJ all the time, and I obviously lost here, too, so I must've done something wrong." C'mon, dude, you've been around long enough to know better than this. Saying, "I 3bet JJ preflop to isolate," was just the first thing I saw to jump on to keep in the spirit.

Re: If I could just play JJ as well as BBB does
 

Whether I raise (and potentially cap) the flop depends on what kind of hands he played on the 3 out of 9 hands you saw from him. You also didn't indicate whether he capped any of those other 3 hands PF. I also take note of whether or not he won any of those hands because he could just be steaming now.

From information given though, I R/C flop. Slow down and call the turn (esp if RR on flop) and probably cry on the river.