66 hand from Stars $320
 

OK, I've been a little active but not crazily so. I was going to post the hand in stages because I think both PF and flop are interesting, but Steve is tired of that, so I won't. Besides, I think the flop decision is more interesting anyway so let's get right to it.

Maybe it's more clear cut to some of you but I don't necessarily see a big stack donkbet as a sign of anything major. Yet. But how should i proceed? (And again, PF-- should I even be playing the hand?)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

<font color="#C00000">Hero (t9941)</font>
MP1 (t13127)
MP2 (t8206)
MP3 (t12178)
CO (t11075)
Button (t7362)
SB (t7685)
BB (t28045)
UTG (t15259)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1025</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls t1025, MP3 calls t1025, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls t625.

Flop: (t3860) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t1400</font>, Hero?

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

I tend to raise pf at most tables, although I think it's a leak at ones where there's a lot of calling/3betting. On the flop I think just folding is best. Your stack is incredibly awkward for raising and there are two people still to act. Maybe too weak, I don't know.

Steve

P.S. The stages thing it just seemed like every hand was being posted like that...there was even one that started with you having AA and it's folded to you on the button...!?!?

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. The stages thing it just seemed like every hand was being posted like that...there was even one that started with you having AA and it's folded to you on the button...!?!?

[/ QUOTE ]
Haha, I didn't see that one. I have seen a few hands lately that seem to be in stages unnecessarily. Here I wanted to discuss both streets, but PF is such a simple question that I'd rather get to the dynamics of the flop decision.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

I usually fold 66 pre with &lt; 30bb stack in this position.

If it were HU, I wouldn't be worried either. But he's donking into 3 players and we have to act before the other 2. I think calling looks too weak. Raising will look strong, but it's basically a bluff and will probably commit you to the pot if you try it since you need to make it like 5k to go. So, I fold [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

pf is close but good
flop is a fold

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

hmm.

I usually pump it up in this situation and make it 3750-4000
flop action looks like weak 9 or draw...raise will make BB fold their 9 but you may get action from draw. You might also get other callers off of TT, T9, A9, 77, 88.

that being said I agree that your stack is awkward and there are 2 more players to act.

I could go either way on this one....but im not a huge nit [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] so Im raising.

any results?

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to raise pf at most tables, although I think it's a leak at ones where there's a lot of calling/3betting. On the flop I think just folding is best.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't think the flop is particularly close though.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

Yeah.. preflop is fine and kinda depends on the table. I basically just consider it a glorified steal from EP, so I raise here at about the same type of table that I raise any twoish from the BU with the same stacks.

Flop is just a fold [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]. Really not close, IMHO.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

So basically we are looking to steal the blinds or flop a set?

If we are going to nit up and fold here (yes I know there are 2 others in the pot) to the BBs weak lead then I like a fold pre-flop from UTG+1 with your stack.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

you did notice that there were 3 callers, right? We're looking to steal blinds, flop a set, or win the pot with a cbet, mostly.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

I would call on the flop if BB is a weak player and I feel like I can get him off 77 + 88. Ir represent a flush given position + future action.

If he has a set, he'll tell me on a non-diamond turn and I can proceed from there. I'm not really worried about A, K, Q on the turn given the action. He might be, though.

I'm not that worried about the players behind me given this flop and I'm getting better than 4:1 to gamble with BB and his weak lead.

Folding is fine too, but it's closer than some are leading on to.

Barry

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

I think calling on the flop is the worst option because we (and I'm guessing certainly Nath) wouldn't play the more reasonable part of our EP raising range like that on that board with two left to act, this shallow.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

before i read on you only have 2 options. raise big and represent a big hand or fold. id fold w 2 players still to act. probably raise w only 1 left . callling stinks. invites other callers and says im not strong. by the way i don't like the open raise w 66 here and if i do its a bluff and needs to be bigger raise

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

yes I know there were 3 callers total. I was referring to the 2 behind us.....the 2 players that we are out of postion to.

I assume that if we are heads up versus the BB we are playing the pot for sure.

ok, I assume this is a spot where you would cbet for sure right? well, how much would you cbet? the pot is ~4500 by my estimation. I would have cbet 3500 or 3750. With the weak lead by the BB you can basically raise it to that amount and rep an overpair. It would also look stonger than just a cbet no?

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

with all these callers easy fold.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

Obvious flop fold. Preflop you want a reasonably tight image and table before I like this.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

PF=Fine except I'm probably taking it to 3xBB just so you aren't giving as good of odds especially to big stacks in blinds


Flop = Ughh with 2 ppl left to act unfortunately I think you have to fold

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

OK, looks like fold is the consensus. I actually didn't fold, even though I thought I probably should have; I decided for the cheap price that it was plausible for him to have a draw, and I could get away if further action developed. I now think that too many factors have to break my way for me to win this pot and I'm better off folding.

The board blanked off and we checked through; he ended up having 9c5c.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK, looks like fold is the consensus. I actually didn't fold, even though I thought I probably should have; I decided for the cheap price that it was plausible for him to have a draw, and I could get away if further action developed. I now think that too many factors have to break my way for me to win this pot and I'm better off folding.

The board blanked off and we checked through; he ended up having 9c5c.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nath,

So you called? Once you call and he checks a blank turn, you don't plan on firing anymore? do you really expect to see a 9, and now that the turn is a blank and he checks HU, is there no value with firing a PSB here (which would have taken him off his 9 and gotten value out of a flush)?

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

I was a little confused by your post, so sorry if my response is irrelevant, but I think the guy c/f's his 9 on the turn basically never.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was a little confused by your post, so sorry if my response is irrelevant, but I think the guy c/f's his 9 on the turn basically never.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah seriously... if you call the flop, betting the turn as a bluff is pretty retarded.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

I think calling is the worst thing you can do. If you wanted to play the flop I think it is a push. At least then you are representing a huge overpair and if you think the BB was just betting a pair you might get him to fold.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

nath,

I think 'raising small' PF is the worst choice between raising a normal amount/raising small/folding, and leads to crap spots like the one you wound up in.

ps: I kinda like a flop shove

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

[ QUOTE ]
nath,

I think 'raising small' PF is the worst choice between raising a normal amount/raising small/folding, and leads to crap spots like the one you wound up in.

ps: I kinda like a flop shove

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I should have mentioned that 1025 had been basically standard for me at this level, and was working fine. I had been recently active, though, which suggests I may get more calls with a small raise, so there's an argument to raise more or even fold.

I thought about a flop shove but the combination of people to act and having two outs when called made it too risky IMO. I think I tried to straddle a line between winning the pot and giving it up, and didn't really achieve either.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

i think pf is real bad

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

raising at all, or that amount?

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

Standard fold preflop

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

pre flop: fold
flop: fold

jesus christ nath, just fold.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

[ QUOTE ]
raising at all, or that amount?

[/ QUOTE ]

at all.

I think raising small pps w/ relatively shallo stacks is a huge yet very common mistake.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

I think everyone agrees pre-flop is terrible but the real question is how we play the flop given that we raised pre.

Should we give up or try and win the pot?

I think the BB weak leading into us gives us a great opportunity to represent an over pair by raising to about 4k which would be not much more than a standard cbet.

From my experience the weak lead by an average/bad player is indicative of a weak 9 or less likely a draw in this spot.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

If you are going to call the turn I would bet out on any overcard on later streets that is not an ace.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

Ok, sorry for my nooby question, but why is raising 66 bad preflop? What stacksizes are we looking for that raising with 66 utg+1 is correct? Veeeery deep or in push/fold mode?
Just want to improve my game

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raising at all, or that amount?

[/ QUOTE ]

at all.

I think raising small pps w/ relatively shallo stacks is a huge yet very common mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I might be ass backwards in my thinking because I'm thinking the exact opposite.

Relative deep stacks are more likely to call PF and more likely to pay off when you nail a set, yet less likely to fold to a c-bet.

However, these stacks (I would think) would be less likely to call with marginal hands and more likely to get married to top pair when you do nail a set. Plus, the right c-bet will force these stacks out if they did miss.

I like a PF raise because of the stack sizes and the FE pre and post flop.

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, sorry for my nooby question, but why is raising 66 bad preflop? What stacksizes are we looking for that raising with 66 utg+1 is correct? Veeeery deep or in push/fold mode?
Just want to improve my game

[/ QUOTE ]

both

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raising at all, or that amount?

[/ QUOTE ]

at all.

I think raising small pps w/ relatively shallo stacks is a huge yet very common mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]


In general I agree with Ansky here. However, given Nath's typical EP play (my impression of this play may be completely wrong...however I've seen a few PXF replays that show him raising in EP very light) do you still believe Nath shouldn't be raising 66 here?

Re: 66 hand from Stars $320
 

If I raise 66 in EP it has very little to do with the strength of my hand and everything to do with my table image and the tightness of the table. It's certainly better to have 66 than 72o here, but not by that much.