KK v LAG, ugly board
 

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $41.00
<font color="black">Hero (BB): $50.00</font>
UTG: $82.25
CO: $65.50
BTN: $42.00

<font color="black">Reads: </font><font color="blue">Villain is fairly LAG, runs about 30/10/3</font>

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 Players)
UTG calls $0.50, CO folds, BTN calls $0.50, <font color="red">SB raises to $3.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $9.00</font>, 2 folds, SB calls $6.00

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($19) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($19) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $11.00</font>, Hero calls $11.00

<font color="black">River:</font> ($41) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets all-in for $21.00</font>, Hero folds

Pot Size: $62.00

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

As played fold turn, I bet flop for 12$ and then just shut down if I don't get the Kd on the turn.

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

Are you bluffing or value betting when you bet flop?

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

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Are you bluffing or value betting when you bet flop?

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you are cbetting


Its true that you shouldnt get agressive in WA/WB situations, but if you say he is LAGish you NEEED to cbet here.

Essentially bluffing, but unless hes completely retarded he isnt gonna make a move without a hand on that flop (if you cbet).

By checking you make it so unbelievably clear what you have and even the worst opponents will realize that.

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

Is he going to bluff two streets with a worse hand then?

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

you mean after you check the flop? If he's certain that you're scared of that flop then yes.

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

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Is he going to bluff two streets with a worse hand then?

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possible. QQ and JJ might take that line. (although JJ isnt a worse hand by the river)


the point is that you just dont want to be in this spot in the first place.

Those 11$ you called in the dark and still lost the pot would be much better invested in a cbet. Think about it, if you are planning to call this kind of bet (hoping he gives up on the river) at some point, why not bet it yourself earlier?

There will be enough retarded QQs and JJs calling, you wont give a free cards to PPs that have a club in it AND you are prefectly clear on how to act on later streets.


A cbet is so useful here


edit: any his range is so much wider than QQ JJ AK here. A 30 vpip guy will often take a flop with JTs here. If I were one of these guys, Id definitely try to take this flop away from you on turn + river

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

hra makes the perfect point about a cbet here.

if you're prepared to check behind on flop, and then call $11 on the turn, why not bet the $11 yourself on the flop, and put him in the position of thinking about "what hands can I beat?"

now if he calls or raises you can get away from the hand...if he still bluffs you, good for him

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

not cbettin this flop isnt that terrible, I situations like this where we have position i like to check behind on the flop to gain value from other hands...the only reason im leaning toward a cbet here though is because we dont hold the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]...after checkin the flop callin the turn is ok and the river can almost go either way IMO but probably a high variance call??

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

[ QUOTE ]
hra makes the perfect point about a cbet here.

if you're prepared to check behind on flop, and then call $11 on the turn, why not bet the $11 yourself on the flop, and put him in the position of thinking about "what hands can I beat?"

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well if we bet $11 on the flop after 3bettin pf w/ an A on the board it could make villian fold out anything we beat and get called probably by only hands that beat us...when we check yes we show weakness and his turn bet could be w/ 77+ and bluffs...

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hra makes the perfect point about a cbet here.

if you're prepared to check behind on flop, and then call $11 on the turn, why not bet the $11 yourself on the flop, and put him in the position of thinking about "what hands can I beat?"

[/ QUOTE ]

well if we bet $11 on the flop after 3bettin pf w/ an A on the board it could make villian fold out anything we beat and get called probably by only hands that beat us...when we check yes we show weakness and his turn bet could be w/ 77+ and bluffs...

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YES. Thats ONE general concept for betting / not betting. But havent we now worked out why its still better to bet?

.when we check yes we show weakness and his turn bet could be w/ 77+ and bluffs...

... ? that ... is exactly our point... ...

can we call bluffs ... ? ... with a bluffactcher on a super scary board ... ? ... without reads... ? about villain... ?

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

77+ really isnt a bluff and yes we can call that, im just sayin checkin behind on this flop isnt such a bad option like you make it sound...checkin behind on a A high flop givin the pf action w/ like KK can at times maximize value from other hands where as cbettin only gets those hands to fold and better to call...but like i said im more inclined here to cbet only b/c we dont hold the K of clubs...

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

[ QUOTE ]
77+ really isnt a bluff and yes we can call that, im just sayin checkin behind on this flop isnt such a bad option like you make it sound...checkin behind on a A high flop givin the pf action w/ like KK can at times maximize value from other hands where as cbettin only gets those hands to fold and better to call...but like i said im more inclined here to cbet only b/c we dont hold the K of clubs...

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we all know that. And we are not discussing general theory here but this particular hand.

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

As someone has said C bet the flop. If I'm OOP I check and probably fold to a large bet on the flop, but in position if its checked to me on that flop bet your standard 2/3rds and hope your opponent missed the board. If he calls check through the turn and hopefully you'll catch an out, or possibly get a free show down. If he raises easy fold.

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

My 2 cents.

If he moves in (for ~ ½ the pot) on the river, then your effective odds will be 1.6-to-1, which means you need 38% equity to call.

Notice that his turn bet screams of commitment, since if you move him in he will be getting 3-to-1 and will probably only fold if he was bluffing or does not have an Ace or (if he’s too loose) a club in his hand.

We know he didn’t raise preflop with the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in his hand, and so now we eliminate half of the AKs-AJs combos that have a single [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] that he would be betting.

So, if we make an estimate that he has the following range for betting the turn:

AA-TT (weighted towards the single club varietal)
AK-AJ (weighted towards the single club varietal)
66 (set)
K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (flopped flush)

Then you have ~ 32% equity and can’t call.

If he was a good LAG, then we would eliminate 66 from his range b/c he wouldn’t have called your 3-bet preflop since he did not have the IO to flop a set. If he was good too, he probably wouldn’t have called with AJo or KQs, which brings your equity up to 39%. If you have a read on how capable he is, the fact that he just called your 3-bet preflop should help you narrow his range, since he probably would have just jammed with his best holdings.

So depending on his range, you are either very -EV or perhaps 0EV or slightly +EV depending on how often he bluffs here.

As a result, I think you should have clarified the situation on the flop (as others have suggested) b/c it would take a lot of balls for him to raise your c-bet as a pure bluff (or a semi-bluff with a single [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) since you would be getting great odds to call and have top pair often. IOW, you could easily fold given his stack size, board texture, and previous action.

If you’re worried about folding the better hand, look at it this way:

you’re more likely to do just that after he bets the turn given you’ve checked the flop, than if he crams over your flop c-bet.

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

F-ed up but funny avatar dude

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

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[ QUOTE ]
77+ really isnt a bluff and yes we can call that, im just sayin checkin behind on this flop isnt such a bad option like you make it sound...checkin behind on a A high flop givin the pf action w/ like KK can at times maximize value from other hands where as cbettin only gets those hands to fold and better to call...but like i said im more inclined here to cbet only b/c we dont hold the K of clubs...

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we all know that. And we are not discussing general theory here but this particular hand.

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which is exactly what i did apply the so called "general theory" to this particular hand.

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Are you bluffing or value betting when you bet flop?

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you are cbetting


Its true that you shouldnt get agressive in WA/WB situations, but if you say he is LAGish you NEEED to cbet here.

Essentially bluffing, but unless hes completely retarded he isnt gonna make a move without a hand on that flop (if you cbet).

By checking you make it so unbelievably clear what you have and even the worst opponents will realize that.

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you do not need to bet this flop. not at all. i would never. ever.

make decision on river. if he is really aggro, call him sometimes.

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you bluffing or value betting when you bet flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding me? Is that even a legit question? Of course I'm representing something bigger than KK. The thing is you'll very frequently get a fold here, and if you don't bet he might bet it for you with some freaky low flush draw and steal it away or whatever. You shouldn't check any hand you rr with when the flop is monotone (if you have air your best chance of winning the pot is betting and if you have top set it's better to just charge them for staying in instead of getting a four flush out there and eventually get money in behind).

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you bluffing or value betting when you bet flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

you are cbetting


Its true that you shouldnt get agressive in WA/WB situations, but if you say he is LAGish you NEEED to cbet here.

Essentially bluffing, but unless hes completely retarded he isnt gonna make a move without a hand on that flop (if you cbet).

By checking you make it so unbelievably clear what you have and even the worst opponents will realize that.

[/ QUOTE ]

you do not need to bet this flop. not at all. i would never. ever.

make decision on river. if he is really aggro, call him sometimes.

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so whats your reasoning for not cbetting this flop? Yeh , obviously, worse hands call and better bla blab la. So now that you said hero played it well till the turn whats your move?

Just because "hes really aggro" you call for another 30$ here not having a clue about what he has?

Re: KK v LAG, ugly board
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you bluffing or value betting when you bet flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

you are cbetting


Its true that you shouldnt get agressive in WA/WB situations, but if you say he is LAGish you NEEED to cbet here.

Essentially bluffing, but unless hes completely retarded he isnt gonna make a move without a hand on that flop (if you cbet).

By checking you make it so unbelievably clear what you have and even the worst opponents will realize that.

[/ QUOTE ]

you do not need to bet this flop. not at all. i would never. ever.

make decision on river. if he is really aggro, call him sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

so whats your reasoning for not cbetting this flop? Yeh , obviously, worse hands call and better bla blab la. So now that you said hero played it well till the turn whats your move?

Just because "hes really aggro" you call for another 30$ here not having a clue about what he has?

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precisely.

We dont *need* to have a clue what he has....why? he knows what we have!

and yeah, we dont bet the flop because worse hands call and better hands blah blah [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Meh, betting this flop is OK, you are right.
I still dont.

Turn is fine, he is going to fire v often IMO with ATC, and with that, commits himself to firing the river with, you guessed it, ATC he fired the turn with. (aside from AQ/AJ/QQ)