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Villain is 17/12 TAGnit. Flop check is far from standard but I figured he would bet a lot of hands when checked to but fold to a flop bet a lot. Anyways, thoughts on the river? I couldn't put him on a hand that checks the turn and raises the biggest blank ever on the river.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

CO ($105.90)
Button ($213.75)
SB ($99)
BB ($96.40)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($100)</font>
<font color="#C00000">MP ($143.10)</font>

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, MP calls $4, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>.

Flop: ($9.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $6</font>, Hero calls $6.

Turn: ($21.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: ($21.50) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $15</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $40</font>, Hero calls $25.

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were you planning on c/c or c/r the turn?

as played i think folding to the river raise isn't bad considering you are splitting or losing here nearly always against this sort of player

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Nits kinda play some hands strange. I call out of confusion...

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I think the river is either check-call or bet-fold, but not bet-call. If he puts you on an A, he can check the turn to induce a bet from you with T7 and QT. Not much to worry about with these hands. Somehow it seems that he can read you. I would be a little bit worried about that fact.

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I was planning on check-calling the turn.

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I think this is a fold too. You don't see many nits raising rivers with air and the way the hand played out, you'll most likely only have him beat here when he has air because alot of worse hands might have some showdown value the way you played it.

My first guess would be AJ that he just played wierd, but I honestly have no clue, gonna be interested to see what he turned over.

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Meh, with a little more history information I would love the river call more. You said he's a nit so I doubt he's bluffing on the river often enough for a call to be profitable in a vacuum. I can't make sense of his turn check/river raise either, but sometimes players love to get "creative".

Also, if he's pretty good at reading hands I would love your river call a LOT because your line looks pretty weak . Although, this is a standard "slowplay my insane hand oop until river then I donk" from bad players. Not saying that you are one, but what is your image to this guy?

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Looks like AJ,JJ,910 or you win. 910 seems somewhat unlikely considering your read of him being nitish, AJ is possible, JJ seems most likely if you are beat IMO.

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Villain probably has 22 like 90% of the time here. 10% of the time maybe a bluff?

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WHats your image?

His line is very strange, it doesn't achieve maximum EV on anything i can think you may hold.

Why does he raise river if he puts you on JT/67(missed draw?).
Why does he bet the flop if he has AJ/AQ and puts you KK/QQ? No sense.
Why does he check the turn behind if he puts you on a draw?
Why raise river if he thinks he's sucessfully induced some kind of bluff?


I can only assume he cold called pre with 22-JJ/AQ/AJs and bet the flop to protect(PP's). Hits a set, checks behind and raises river to try get more cash.

Looks like JJ to me???

Since im so unsure, all i can say is your beat alot here.

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I do agree that it could be 22 Imarhil, but is 22 really cbetting that flop? Especially if he is nittish? I would expect a nit to just play set value out of small pairs like that.
Dunno tho.

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alot of PP's will fire at this flop when checked to IMO, but they won't raise the river unless they improved to a set.

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FWIW, my image is taggy although a bit on the laggier side, 24/18 - 26/20.

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[ QUOTE ]
I do agree that it could be 22 Imarhil, but is 22 really cbetting that flop? Especially if he is nittish? I would expect a nit to just play set value out of small pairs like that.
Dunno tho.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of players take stabs with PPs when checked to on the flop by the PFR.

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[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, my image is taggy although a bit on the laggier side, 24/18 - 26/20.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then I don't mind the call but it's very marginal imo.

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[ QUOTE ]
Nits kinda play some hands strange. I call out of confusion...

[/ QUOTE ]
If I had a dime for every dime I lost calling out of sheer WTF-osity, I wouldnt need rakeback or a part-time job

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do agree that it could be 22 Imarhil, but is 22 really cbetting that flop? Especially if he is nittish? I would expect a nit to just play set value out of small pairs like that.
Dunno tho.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of players take stabs with PPs when checked to on the flop by the PFR.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldnt a NIT be more likely to bet 22 in position when HE was the PFR?
Not Hero being PFR raiser?

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222.
fold and give up

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your hand looks like KK. call river.

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you played this hand really strange. 22 makes sense, and I could see some people checking behind with the nuts on the turn. That said, the fact that you played this hand so wierd means I think you have to call river, your hand is way way underrepresented.

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But is our hand actually under repped by the river? We just bet, wtf does villan put us on? And if its KK or missed draws - WHYYYY RAISE US?

That shows strength, or he's a nut case (Which is like 0.0001% of the time IMO - Were beat).

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[ QUOTE ]
your hand looks like KK. call river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think a nit is betting the flop here with 22 very often?

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Quit trying to talk yourself into making big river calls vs. nits.

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Results in white below:

<font color="white">He had 22. </font>

I think the call is very marginal, probably best to fold even though I can't put him on anything.

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I think he might do this with other hands too though.

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idk why we gave him 2 basically free cards when we have one pair.

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I think Heros line was to make vilian feel comfortable and put money in without AQ. However it didnt end up working but I think it could.

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Well your hand looks like KK QQ. If you'd c/c these hands on the flop than he might be checking the turn to get some more value from you on the river, knowing that you'd fold these hands to another bet. Basically what kind of hands are you not cbetting here? Or was it just a random play against a not-paying-attention donk? Not many people will bluff-raise river after checking behind the turn. It just looks so fishy that they people are too afraid to do so. If he was bluffing he'd rather fire again on turn, knowing that your c/c on flop after raising PF is so weak. I'd say his range is here A2, 22 (I might be a bit result oriented but at first I thought - wtf, 22 obviously) and AQ and AT and random bluff very rarely. He'd just call river with weaker aces imo. You're getting 3-1 here so I think it might be neutral in terms of EV. Would lean towards folding though (yeah I know results oriented, but again - people bluff-raise river very rarely and only hand we beat that he valueraises here is AQ IMO, and maybe AT 4,28% of the time. Meh I don't know if anything I wrote makes sense but it's kinda late here.

Would like to hear a bit more about not cbetting logic here - what hands are you checking this flop with?

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just a quick question...

forgetting about the river, how do we feel about hero's play on flop/turn?

b/c i do stuff like this from time to time and usually feel like either a genius or a retard, more often a retard.

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[ QUOTE ]


Would like to hear a bit more about not cbetting logic here - what hands are you checking this flop with?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd check the flop with something like KK/QQ, sometimes check weak aces, stuff like T9s sometimes also.

I'd be betting basically air and big hands on this flop and also stuff inbetween, but checking the stuff inbetween more. In this hand I was trying to rep KK/QQ by the flop check, or something else weakish.

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His line is wierd, but from my experience in these wierd lines, they have the goods moe often that not especially from a nit. I like your line if you fold the river, vs player described (obv. not as standard, but sometimes).

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Someone said he has 22 like 90% of the time.... i mean your porbably close. He's never bluffing so i'd probably fold imo.

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If we are to smart to bet flop, whats wrong with a checkraise vs a nit on this flop?

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[ QUOTE ]
If we are to smart to bet flop, whats wrong with a checkraise vs a nit on this flop?

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For kinda the same reason we're not betting it...

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If we are to smart to bet flop, whats wrong with a checkraise vs a nit on this flop?

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For kinda the same reason we're not betting it...

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Not betting this flop is the prob in this hand for me. The nit will make his hand quite obvious right there. He will prob flat call with AQ or AJ, (the hands we get value from), raise with what beats us and fold everything else.

As played, you may have induced a bluff, you gotta call.

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i dont think preflop nits are neccessarily postflop nits. i think there are quite a few preflop nits that make up for the nittiness by being creative postflop. I dont mind the flop c/c, though i personally probably lead.

i would bet the turn though because a whole load of gutshot draws just appeared and if some 4card straights appear on the river its pretty annoying.

i dont really think hes calling an utg raise from mp with Q10 to be honest...AJ, i dont think so..maybe. I think his calling range for an utg raise when in mp is mainly made up of pocket pairs. He may well be fast playing a set on the flop hoping you have the ace. But if he did have a set i think he would bet the turn once you call the flop, since hes probably hoping you have the ace. but since he checks behind the turn it looks like the river helped him somehow.

I probably call because you've played the hand strangly so far and your line looks really bluffy. but im sure i call down way too much in these spots. If you think hes not capable of bluff raising here then fold, if you've ever seen him get out of line i call.

i think its close between bet/fold and bet/call.

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[ QUOTE ]
Not betting this flop is the prob in this hand for me. The nit will make his hand quite obvious right there. He will prob flat call with AQ or AJ, (the hands we get value from), raise with what beats us and fold everything else.

As played, you may have induced a bluff, you gotta call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he will bet a lot more than call when checked to on the flop surely its ok? It not like were going to lose a boatload of value from AJ/AQ anyway? I disagree that he has induced a bluff enough to call on the river. I really don't think most people bluff in this spot too often and the river raise size really doesn't look bluffy tbh.