20k foot view of school shooting
 

Everywhere in virginia, people are allowed to carry firearms for self/other protection. Everywehere except this state university and maybe some other schools and such.

The shooters obviously chose a gun free zone to do their work.

Inference: think twice before enterering a "gun free zone". The only people who have guns in these zones are
a) criminals who will kill you
b) police who will run away and cower in fear while a) happens.

Also realize that there are many incidents in the US where things like this start, but before too much damage happens the crazy gunman is stopped by armed citizens.

Also note that if there is a real terrorist incident like europe had with the red brigade and stuff, it is precisely these gun free locations that will be chosen by 20-30 well armed suicidal politically motivated terrorists.

Conclsuion: Vote with your feet, stay out of the danger zone.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
Everywhere in virginia, people are allowed to carry firearms for self/other protection. Everywehere except this state university and maybe some other schools and such.

The shooters obviously chose a gun free zone to do their work.

Inference: think twice before enterering a "gun free zone". The only people who have guns in these zones are
a) criminals who will kill you
b) police who will run away and cower in fear while a) happens.

Also realize that there are many incidents in the US where things like this start, but before too much damage happens the crazy gunman is stopped by armed citizens.

Also note that if there is a real terrorist incident like europe had with the red brigade and stuff, it is precisely these gun free locations that will be chosen by 20-30 well armed suicidal politically motivated terrorists.

Conclsuion: Vote with your feet, stay out of the danger zone.

[/ QUOTE ]

I lived in Virginia for three years. The vast majority of Virginians are not walking around carrying guns! In my three years, I never met a non law enforcement person who carried a concealed weapon. This could have happenned anywhere.

Edit: And, just for the record, I have a pistol permit.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
In my three years, I never met a non law enforcement person who carried a concealed weapon.

[/ QUOTE ]

That you know of.

I remember the night when three of the people at my home game discovered that the other five of us were all packing heat. It was pretty funny.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also realize that there are many incidents in the US where things like this start, but before too much damage happens the crazy gunman is stopped by armed citizens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would really like to see a "lives saved" vs. "lives lost" statistic on this.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In my three years, I never met a non law enforcement person who carried a concealed weapon.

[/ QUOTE ]

That you know of.

I remember the night when three of the people at my home game discovered that the other five of us were all packing heat. It was pretty funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Elaborate?

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also realize that there are many incidents in the US where things like this start, but before too much damage happens the crazy gunman is stopped by armed citizens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would really like to see a "lives saved" vs. "lives lost" statistic on this.

[/ QUOTE ]
The numbers vary, but I've seen from 500,000 to about 2 million defensive gun uses per year. That's many times more than the number of people who are murdered by guns.
A start

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

ty

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]


The shooters obviously chose a gun free zone to do their work.

Inference: think twice before enterering a "gun free zone". The only people who have guns in these zones are
a) criminals who will kill you
b) police who will run away and cower in fear while a) happens.


[/ QUOTE ]

1) He didn't "choose a gun free zone". He chose to do it in his environment, and attack the people that wronged him or however he viwed it.


Sure, perhaps if some students had guns, one of them could have taken this kid out and saved lives.

But how many single death shootings would we have on college campuses?

Do you really want a bunch of college students that are immature and drunk 5 days a week to have a 9mm next to their beer bong and Periodic Table of Sex Positions?

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would really like to see a "lives saved" vs. "lives lost" statistic on this.


[/ QUOTE ]

heck the last time there was a uni shooting in virginia I think it was, a student or a couple of students stopped it. as soon as the "crazed" gunman was confronted by a nonvictim with a gun he gave up.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In my three years, I never met a non law enforcement person who carried a concealed weapon.

[/ QUOTE ]

That you know of.

I remember the night when three of the people at my home game discovered that the other five of us were all packing heat. It was pretty funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Elaborate?

[/ QUOTE ]

There were 8 of us, and I was open carrying on my hip. Everyone that comes to my game knew that I had a gun on me at all times, explicitly for advertising purposes. We always had not-insignificant amounts of cash at the game (several thousand dollars), and I wanted anyone who had the idea of hitting my game to pick another.

Anyway, a new guy was sort of shocked to see the gun, and asked if he could look at it more closely. I said yes, removed the magazine and ejected the round in the chamber, locked the slide back and handed it to him (butt first, of course). Next thing you know, there's 4 more guns stripped and on the table, and all the gun nuts are passing them back and forth oohing and ahing. My friend Jerry's eyes practically popped out of his head and he almost spit milk out of his nose, even though he hasn't drank milk in 2 decades.

If I remember correctly, there was a 9mm Baretta, a .38 Chief's Special, some sort of Smith & Wesson snub-nose revolver, and some other thing I can't recall.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In my three years, I never met a non law enforcement person who carried a concealed weapon.

[/ QUOTE ]

That you know of.

I remember the night when three of the people at my home game discovered that the other five of us were all packing heat. It was pretty funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Elaborate?

[/ QUOTE ]

There were 8 of us, and I was open carrying on my hip. Everyone that comes to my game knew that I had a gun on me at all times, explicitly for advertising purposes. We always had not-insignificant amounts of cash at the game (several thousand dollars), and I wanted anyone who had the idea of hitting my game to pick another.

Anyway, a new guy was sort of shocked to see the gun, and asked if he could look at it more closely. I said yes, removed the magazine and ejected the round in the chamber, locked the slide back and handed it to him (butt first, of course). Next thing you know, there's 4 more guns stripped and on the table, and all the gun nuts are passing them back and forth oohing and ahing. My friend Jerry's eyes practically popped out of his head and he almost spit milk out of his nose, even though he hasn't drank milk in 2 decades.

If I remember correctly, there was a 9mm Baretta, a .38 Chief's Special, some sort of Smith & Wesson snub-nose revolver, and some other thing I can't recall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a bizarro version of the scene in Jaws where they all compare their scars. Did you start singing "Show me the way to go home" afterwards?

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In my three years, I never met a non law enforcement person who carried a concealed weapon.

[/ QUOTE ]

That you know of.

I remember the night when three of the people at my home game discovered that the other five of us were all packing heat. It was pretty funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Elaborate?

[/ QUOTE ]

There were 8 of us, and I was open carrying on my hip. Everyone that comes to my game knew that I had a gun on me at all times, explicitly for advertising purposes. We always had not-insignificant amounts of cash at the game (several thousand dollars), and I wanted anyone who had the idea of hitting my game to pick another.

Anyway, a new guy was sort of shocked to see the gun, and asked if he could look at it more closely. I said yes, removed the magazine and ejected the round in the chamber, locked the slide back and handed it to him (butt first, of course). Next thing you know, there's 4 more guns stripped and on the table, and all the gun nuts are passing them back and forth oohing and ahing. My friend Jerry's eyes practically popped out of his head and he almost spit milk out of his nose, even though he hasn't drank milk in 2 decades.

If I remember correctly, there was a 9mm Baretta, a .38 Chief's Special, some sort of Smith & Wesson snub-nose revolver, and some other thing I can't recall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny. My games usually involve me misreading the board and losing a $10 pot.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) He didn't "choose a gun free zone". He chose to do it in his environment, and attack the people that wronged him or however he viwed it.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if even a quarter of the people on the campus carried a gun, he would not have been able to get off more than a few shots before he himself was dead. If enough law-abiding citizens were armed, there is a good chance that would be enough deterrence for him to even go through with the thing.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

This is a really weak argument.

1. You honestly think the gunman chose this building because guns weren't allowed? Don't you think it might be because he was a student there?

2. According to this account, the first officers on the scene immediately smashed windows to gain entry to the building in order to confront the shooter. There was no cowering.

3. There is no "gun free area" in areas with adequate police protection.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
3. There is no "gun free area" in areas with adequate police protection.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't honestly think this is true? There are millions of areas where it will take the police several minutes to respond while you are pretty much free to go on a rampage as much as you want until they get there (I don't think this is a good thing -- but unless you want to pay 100% taxes there is no way around it other than letting law-abiding citizens carry their own guns for protection).

True, we have decent police protection that prevents hundreds or thousands of people from being killed in a shootout, but for a motivated individual, the situation like we saw in VT would be fairly easy to repeat (and I am not trying to take away from the tragedy here -- I think it is tragic, but there is just not an easy solution to this).

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
3. There is no "gun free area" in areas with adequate police protection.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's interesting that there is really no such thing as "adequate police protection". The police cannot prevent most crimes and will never prevent most crimes, nor be there to stop violence immediately in most cases (be it a mugging, a fistfight, or the rare mass shooting).

The only thing that could even approach being "adequate protection", would be for a large percentage of responsible adults to carry guns. Even then, some incidents would slip through the cracks, but a mugging or a mass shooting would have a much better chance of being stopped (or better yet, deterred).

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
3. There is no "gun free area" in areas with adequate police protection.

[/ QUOTE ]
I regret posting this.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
2. According to this account, the first officers on the scene immediately smashed windows to gain entry to the building in order to confront the shooter. There was no cowering.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then they deserve a lot of credit and deserve to be respected as police officers. The police at columbine do not.

I guess I was mistaken thinking that since the first shooting was around 7 and the last around 10.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

i believe that the first police went in after the shooter had killed himself..though they werent aware at the time

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

Dropped in on politics because of recent events, and have a few quick thoughts:

- the main argument of the pro-gun posters seems to be that if more citizens were armed, they could stop more crime from happening. The main problem with this is of course that you are essentially giving your citizens permission to shoot and kill each other, based on personal judgement. I don't know if that's a situation you want to be in.

- a lot of people are saying something to the effect of: if we outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have guns. What they fail to see is that the "law obiding citizens" speak of turn into the evil villains themselves sometimes. Girl cheats on guy, guy shoots girl + lover. College student returns home unexpected, dad shoots him because he thinks it's a burglar. Guy goes from party-animal to drug user to broke junkie and starts holding up drugstores...

It almost seems that this is a common mistake you Americans make: to divide the world into "evil states" that are part of an "axis of evil", where "terrorists" live, while "criminals" are making your streets unsafe. It's all just people. People make mistakes. There is no "good" and "evil", only a society with a culture that creates both, and where all people have the capacity for both.

When people have guns at hand when they make these mistakes, the consequences get worse.

Arming people to stop gun crime is like starting a war to create peace. It will never work.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3. There is no "gun free area" in areas with adequate police protection.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't honestly think this is true? There are millions of areas where it will take the police several minutes to respond while you are pretty much free to go on a rampage as much as you want until they get there (I don't think this is a good thing -- but unless you want to pay 100% taxes there is no way around it other than letting law-abiding citizens carry their own guns for protection).

True, we have decent police protection that prevents hundreds or thousands of people from being killed in a shootout, but for a motivated individual, the situation like we saw in VT would be fairly easy to repeat (and I am not trying to take away from the tragedy here -- I think it is tragic, but there is just not an easy solution to this).



[/ QUOTE ]

Just for some statistics, here in the UK the total number of deaths (recorded obv) from firearms injuries in the 10 years 1994-2003 was 2,270 the fairly draconian gun control rules brought in after Dunblane in 1997 seem to be having the effect of saving 100-150 lives a year, guns have never been as popular here as in the US.

This statistics have been taken from an anti-gun source, but appear to have been read out in the UK parliament at some point so they should be accurate.

I understand there were ~29,500 deaths (EDIT 17,000 suicides) from firearms injuries in the USA in 2001 alone, from a population 5 times bigger than ours.

Basically you are talking about 250-300 thousand people getting killed every 10 years as a price for the right to bear arms, I don't think it's worth it, maybe you do. If I missed anything or oversimplified then my apologies.

Regards Mack

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dropped in on politics because of recent events, and have a few quick thoughts:

- the main argument of the pro-gun posters seems to be that if more citizens were armed, they could stop more crime from happening. The main problem with this is of course that you are essentially giving your citizens permission to shoot and kill each other, based on personal judgement. I don't know if that's a situation you want to be in.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line of thinking is so authoritarian that it's frightening. Since I don't actively intervene to prevent you from having gasoline and styrofoam in your house, I am giving you permission to make napalm and use it to burn your neighbor's house down.

Wow.

Of course, the real fallacy here is assuming that some bureaucrat even has a legitimate right to determine if I may have item X in the first place.

[ QUOTE ]
- a lot of people are saying something to the effect of: if we outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have guns. What they fail to see is that the "law obiding citizens" speak of turn into the evil villains themselves sometimes. Girl cheats on guy, guy shoots girl + lover. College student returns home unexpected, dad shoots him because he thinks it's a burglar. Guy goes from party-animal to drug user to broke junkie and starts holding up drugstores...

[/ QUOTE ]

You *might* wake up tomorrow and do something "bad" or "stupid" - so we should take you into protective custody now. Just in case. Think of the children.

[ QUOTE ]
Arming people to stop gun crime is like starting a war to create peace. It will never work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Luckily, nobody here is advocating arming people. DUCY?

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dropped in on politics because of recent events, and have a few quick thoughts:

- the main argument of the pro-gun posters seems to be that if more citizens were armed, they could stop more crime from happening. The main problem with this is of course that you are essentially giving your citizens permission to shoot and kill each other, based on personal judgement. I don't know if that's a situation you want to be in.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line of thinking is so authoritarian that it's frightening. Since I don't actively intervene to prevent you from having gasoline and styrofoam in your house, I am giving you permission to make napalm and use it to burn your neighbor's house down.

Wow.

Of course, the real fallacy here is assuming that some bureaucrat even has a legitimate right to determine if I may have item X in the first place.

[ QUOTE ]
- a lot of people are saying something to the effect of: if we outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have guns. What they fail to see is that the "law obiding citizens" speak of turn into the evil villains themselves sometimes. Girl cheats on guy, guy shoots girl + lover. College student returns home unexpected, dad shoots him because he thinks it's a burglar. Guy goes from party-animal to drug user to broke junkie and starts holding up drugstores...

[/ QUOTE ]

You *might* wake up tomorrow and do something "bad" or "stupid" - so we should take you into protective custody now. Just in case. Think of the children.

[ QUOTE ]
Arming people to stop gun crime is like starting a war to create peace. It will never work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Luckily, nobody here is advocating arming people. DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ]



Honest question.

If guns were allowed on college campuses and everyone that is currently eligible under US gun laws purchased a single handgun, which they carried on them, would criminal fatal shootings occur more or less?

I get the argument that if some people had guns here then he wouldn't have killed 32. He might have killed X and then been stopped by someone with a gun of their own.

But say it saved 15 lives, just for the sake of argument. How many more single death shootings would occur? I'd wager that a lot more domestic/alcohol related shootings would occur. So you might limit the deaths in massacres, but there would be a significant increase in single death shootings.




And if someone wants to shoot up a school and knows that people in there will be armed, it doesn't motivate him to not do it, it motivates the shooter to have a better plan and a better arsenal. If he knew some people might have handguns, then he seeks out a bullet proof vest, assualt rifles, automatic weapons, starts using smoke bombs and chaining all exits, killing the power, etc, etc.

Sure he just came in with two handguns, because thats all he needed. He planned this, buying guns over a month in advance. Obviously, it was something he was determined to do, and whats to say he wouldn't just have brought more and even more powerful guns to make up for the people with guns?


And do we really want college students to be having shootouts? Guy who brings a gun to class, hears shooting going on down the hall, runs out to do something, sees another fellow hero, mistakes him for the shooter, and now we got innocent people shooting at each other.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dropped in on politics because of recent events, and have a few quick thoughts:

- the main argument of the pro-gun posters seems to be that if more citizens were armed, they could stop more crime from happening. The main problem with this is of course that you are essentially giving your citizens permission to shoot and kill each other, based on personal judgement. I don't know if that's a situation you want to be in.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line of thinking is so authoritarian that it's frightening. Since I don't actively intervene to prevent you from having gasoline and styrofoam in your house, I am giving you permission to make napalm and use it to burn your neighbor's house down.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the statement: "if only some armed citizens were around when this shooter started killing people, they could have stopped him" to be true, you have to give people permission to carry guns and use them when their judgement tells them that it is correct to do so. If carrying and using them would be forbidden, owning them would be of no use to prevent crime (except in your own house). The people who are arguing that citizens should be allowed to arm themselves to stop more crime from happening, are implying that 1. they are allowed to own a gun 2. they are allowed to carry it around and 3. everyone can use it if their judgement tells them they can stop a crime with it. My comment was directed to them, as I thought I made clear.

[ QUOTE ]
You *might* wake up tomorrow and do something "bad" or "stupid"

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that's why I would NEVER bring a gun into the house where I live with my family.


[ QUOTE ]
Luckily, nobody here is advocating arming people. DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people are advocating arming people. I see a lot of posters quoting statistics of crime going down vs gun owners going up or anecdotes of armed bystanders who killed a crazy shooter or simply saying stupid [censored] like: "If you want my gun, you'll have to kill me first."

A lot of these point to the same philosophy of: let's all get guns and shoot dead every mother [censored] who tries to [censored] with us, our family, our property or them stars and stripes.


Oh and:

[ QUOTE ]
I am giving you permission to make napalm and use it to burn your neighbor's house down.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
assuming that some bureaucrat even has a legitimate right to determine if I may have item X in the first place.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
we should take you into protective custody now. Just in case. Think of the children.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ]

All of this is unnecessary and just highlights your lack of respect for this discussion and looks pretty arrogant as well. (not to mention stupid, but feel free to delete this part if it's in violation of the Politics constitution)

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]

Honest question.

If guns were allowed on college campuses and everyone that is currently eligible under US gun laws purchased a single handgun, which they carried on them, would criminal fatal shootings occur more or less?

[/ QUOTE ]

Honest answer: I don't know. And I don't care. I'm not very interested in results-oriented thinking.

[ QUOTE ]
I get the argument that if some people had guns here then he wouldn't have killed 32. He might have killed X and then been stopped by someone with a gun of their own.

But say it saved 15 lives, just for the sake of argument. How many more single death shootings would occur? I'd wager that a lot more domestic/alcohol related shootings would occur. So you might limit the deaths in massacres, but there would be a significant increase in single death shootings.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your bare supposition is enough to justify invasive, aggressive action against innocent people?




[ QUOTE ]
And if someone wants to shoot up a school and knows that people in there will be armed, it doesn't motivate him to not do it, it motivates the shooter to have a better plan and a better arsenal. If he knew some people might have handguns, then he seeks out a bullet proof vest, assualt rifles, automatic weapons, starts using smoke bombs and chaining all exits, killing the power, etc, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is precisely why these kind of discussions are pointless. We're just making up total suppositions and you want to make policy out of this?

OH NOES the school cafeteria lunch lady could poison all the children! Ship all lunch ladies off to the gulag!

[ QUOTE ]
Sure he just came in with two handguns, because thats all he needed. He planned this, buying guns over a month in advance. Obviously, it was something he was determined to do, and whats to say he wouldn't just have brought more and even more powerful guns to make up for the people with guns?

[/ QUOTE ]

So you want to lower the bar for criminals? Make it easier for them?

[ QUOTE ]
And do we really want college students to be having shootouts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that's exactly what everyone wants.

That's sarcasm, btw.

Do we really want college students being kept defenseless, lined up against a wall, and executed? Because that's what gun control gets you.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]

Do we really want college students being kept defenseless, lined up against a wall, and executed? Because that's what gun control gets you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I rest my case. Carry on, politics forum.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
For the statement: "if only some armed citizens were around when this shooter started killing people, they could have stopped him" to be true, you have to give people permission to carry guns and use them when their judgement tells them that it is correct to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who has to give this permission?

How is it this person's responsibility and privelege to decide whether to give this permission?

Do I need permission to eat a banana? Talk to my neighbor? Invite friends over to watch the game?

Where do I apply for the appropriate permits?


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You *might* wake up tomorrow and do something "bad" or "stupid"

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that's why I would NEVER bring a gun into the house where I live with my family.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you have heavy blunt objects? Knives? Glass windows?


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Luckily, nobody here is advocating arming people. DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people are advocating arming people. I see a lot of posters quoting statistics of crime going down vs gun owners going up or anecdotes of armed bystanders who killed a crazy shooter or simply saying stupid [censored] like: "If you want my gun, you'll have to kill me first."

A lot of these point to the same philosophy of: let's all get guns and shoot dead every mother [censored] who tries to [censored] with us, our family, our property or them stars and stripes.

[/ QUOTE ]

None of this points to any advocacy of arming people. I can choose to get a gun for myself without requiring you to get one. I have not seen one person advocate a policy where you would be compelled to possess a firearm.


[ QUOTE ]
All of this is unnecessary and just highlights your lack of respect for this discussion and looks pretty arrogant as well. (not to mention stupid, but feel free to delete this part if it's in violation of the Politics constitution)

[/ QUOTE ]

But you telling me that I'm too stupid or evil to make decisions for myself isn't arrogant, unnecessary, or disrespectful?

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

pvn,

Yes, keeping a gun out of your home doesn't prevent you from picking up a dirty sock and strangling your wife. Excellent Point.

(this is sarcasm, btw.)

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

"all the gun nuts are passing them back and forth oohing and ahing."

We who are not gun nuts worry about nuts who ooh and ah over guns.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
The police cannot prevent most crimes and will never prevent most crimes, nor be there to stop violence immediately in most cases (be it a mugging, a fistfight, or the rare mass shooting).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep their orientation is reactive rather than proactive and it's easy to see why this is the case. For anyone who thinks otherwise try going to your local police station and warning them of a potential crime and see what they do.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
"all the gun nuts are passing them back and forth oohing and ahing."

We who are not gun nuts worry about nuts who ooh and ah over guns.

[/ QUOTE ]
Worry about the nuts with guns, not the gun nuts.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3. There is no "gun free area" in areas with adequate police protection.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't honestly think this is true? There are millions of areas where it will take the police several minutes to respond while you are pretty much free to go on a rampage as much as you want until they get there (I don't think this is a good thing -- but unless you want to pay 100% taxes there is no way around it other than letting law-abiding citizens carry their own guns for protection).

True, we have decent police protection that prevents hundreds or thousands of people from being killed in a shootout, but for a motivated individual, the situation like we saw in VT would be fairly easy to repeat (and I am not trying to take away from the tragedy here -- I think it is tragic, but there is just not an easy solution to this).



[/ QUOTE ]

Just for some statistics, here in the UK the total number of deaths (recorded obv) from firearms injuries in the 10 years 1994-2003 was 2,270 the fairly draconian gun control rules brought in after Dunblane in 1997 seem to be having the effect of saving 100-150 lives a year, guns have never been as popular here as in the US.

This statistics have been taken from an anti-gun source, but appear to have been read out in the UK parliament at some point so they should be accurate.

I understand there were ~29,500 deaths (EDIT 17,000 suicides) from firearms injuries in the USA in 2001 alone, from a population 5 times bigger than ours.

Basically you are talking about 250-300 thousand people getting killed every 10 years as a price for the right to bear arms, I don't think it's worth it, maybe you do. If I missed anything or oversimplified then my apologies.

Regards Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

Long term trends in the U.S. indicate that murder rates are on the decline. The effect of disarming U.S. citizens of guns on suicide rates is unknowable IMO. Anyway it's easy to talk about disarming U.S. citizens of guns in the abstract, quite another matter from a practical point of view. Estimates are that there are over 200,000,000 guns in the U.S. Coupled with incidents like Waco and Ruby Ridge it's doubtful the government would ever undertake such an action. There's ample evidence IMO that governments in the U.S. aren't up to the task. The problems with "gun free zone" are well discussed in other posts.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

I think that a school environement should have a small percentage of students - maybe 10-15% - armed and trained in gun use. So in the VT case, each classroom would have had 2-3 armed students. If the shooter knew this was the case, maybe nobody dies.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For the statement: "if only some armed citizens were around when this shooter started killing people, they could have stopped him" to be true, you have to give people permission to carry guns and use them when their judgement tells them that it is correct to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who has to give this permission?

How is it this person's responsibility and privelege to decide whether to give this permission?

Do I need permission to eat a banana? Talk to my neighbor? Invite friends over to watch the game?

Where do I apply for the appropriate permits?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Who has to give this permission?

[/ QUOTE ]

The government. In a law.

[ QUOTE ]
How is it this person's responsibility and privelege to decide whether to give this permission?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because that's how a democracy works.

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Do I need permission to eat a banana? Talk to my neighbor? Invite friends over to watch the game?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[ QUOTE ]
Where do I apply for the appropriate permits?


[/ QUOTE ]

If said law would be passed, these practical issues would need to be resolved. I don't know the American model well enough to tell you how it would work.

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You *might* wake up tomorrow and do something "bad" or "stupid"

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Yes, that's why I would NEVER bring a gun into the house where I live with my family.

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But you have heavy blunt objects? Knives? Glass windows?



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Yes. I would feel safe when my kids play in a rock garden, but not in an armory full of loaded guns.

I would have some sharp kitchen knives, preferrably out of the children's reach.

I haven't heard of anyone who has been killed by a glass window, ever.

Those comments cover the "accident"-ground. As far as intentional harm is concerned, all of them (especially the glass windows) would require much greater physical strength, skill, motivation and dedication to kill someone than pulling the trigger of a gun would.

[ QUOTE ]
None of this points to any advocacy of arming people. I can choose to get a gun for myself without requiring you to get one. I have not seen one person advocate a policy where you would be compelled to possess a firearm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a quick grab:

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I think that a school environement should have a small percentage of students - maybe 10-15% - armed and trained in gun use. So in the VT case, each classroom would have had 2-3 armed students. If the shooter knew this was the case, maybe nobody dies.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]

But you telling me that I'm too stupid or evil to make decisions for myself isn't arrogant, unnecessary, or disrespectful?

[/ QUOTE ]

I told you that the way you reply makes you look stupid. The fact that good people can do evil things is certainly a good argument for government regulation of gun posession. As far as making decisions for yourself go: I believe that if you want to be part of a society, you have to give up certain personal freedoms in exchange for other profits. In this example: giving up the right to walk around with guns and shooting people because you believe that they are committing a crime that should be stopped by lethal force.


As a general reply to your questions: did you think any of them really contributed to this discussion? Did you honestly not know the answer to any of them? Is it just a tactic of yours to twist other people's words and then spewing retarded questions based on statements they never made? I don't know if you are just a troll/attention whore or just have some strange views of society and want to vent them without rational thoughts backing them up. I can't really figure it out. I just know it's irritating and unconstructive.

To all: is this a troll or is this just the way it goes in this forum? Guess I'll go back to the way things were and forget about this place.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
To all: is this a troll or is this just the way it goes in this forum? Guess I'll go back to the way things were and forget about this place.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the way it goes in this forum. PVN is trying to convince you to become an anarcho-capitalist: someone who thinks all government is evil or unnecessary and that society can be organized around unregulated capitalism. Its too bad you're leaving, I liked reading your posts.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who has to give this permission?

[/ QUOTE ]

The government. In a law.

[ QUOTE ]
How is it this person's responsibility and privelege to decide whether to give this permission?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because that's how a democracy works.

[/ QUOTE ]

That provides no normative justification. It's nothing more than "because I said so."

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. I would feel safe when my kids play in a rock garden, but not in an armory full of loaded guns.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then don't let your kids play in an armory full of loaded guns. What does this have to do with restricting people from owning firearms? I don't buy twinkies for my kids, but I'm not out crusading to take them away from anyone else.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
None of this points to any advocacy of arming people. I can choose to get a gun for myself without requiring you to get one. I have not seen one person advocate a policy where you would be compelled to possess a firearm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a quick grab:

[ QUOTE ]

I think that a school environement should have a small percentage of students - maybe 10-15% - armed and trained in gun use. So in the VT case, each classroom would have had 2-3 armed students. If the shooter knew this was the case, maybe nobody dies.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahaha. You found one. Good show. Did you notice that post was after my post where I said nobody was advocating that?

I'll tell you now that I don't advocate arming anyone, and most of the people here are not advocating it, either.

Opposing restrictions on possession is not advocating that people actively arm other people.

Do you see the difference between the converse and the contrapositive?

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[ QUOTE ]
But you telling me that I'm too stupid or evil to make decisions for myself isn't arrogant, unnecessary, or disrespectful?

[/ QUOTE ]

I told you that the way you reply makes you look stupid. The fact that good people can do evil things is certainly a good argument for government regulation of gun posession.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so. I'd go so far as to say this argument makes you look stupid - because the fact that people can do evil things is a good reason that people need guns for defense. Further, you still haven't shown us how government has any legitimate business deciding this question in the first place.

[ QUOTE ]
As far as making decisions for yourself go: I believe that if you want to be part of a society, you have to give up certain personal freedoms in exchange for other profits. In this example: giving up the right to walk around with guns and shooting people because you believe that they are committing a crime that should be stopped by lethal force.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's inherent about "a society" that requires this? There have certainly been societies in the past where this wasn't required, so it's obviously not a requirement for a society to exist.

You don't like guns. That's fine. If you would prefer only to associate with other people who don't like guns, that's fine with me too. If you want to make other people give up firearms as a condition of interacting with you, go right ahead.

Now explain how you go from these personal preferences to using force against people who don't like your rules.

[ QUOTE ]
As a general reply to your questions: did you think any of them really contributed to this discussion?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just as much as what I replied to.

[ QUOTE ]
Did you honestly not know the answer to any of them? Is it just a tactic of yours to twist other people's words and then spewing retarded questions based on statements they never made? I don't know if you are just a troll/attention whore or just have some strange views of society and want to vent them without rational thoughts backing them up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where are the rational thoughts backing up your strange views taht people are too dumb and too evil to make decisions for themselves? Is it just a tactic of yours to spew adhominem without rational thoughts backing them up?

[ QUOTE ]
I can't really figure it out. I just know it's irritating and unconstructive.

To all: is this a troll or is this just the way it goes in this forum? Guess I'll go back to the way things were and forget about this place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is the way it goes. Your positions will be questioned. This is not a tea party. Bye, take your ad hominem with you.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
PVN is trying to convince you to become an anarcho-capitalist

[/ QUOTE ]

Incorrect! I am only trying to point out that the policies he advocates are unjustifiably aggressive. I don't care if he's a commie or a democrat or none of the above, as long as he isn't out trying to make other people do stuff they don't want to do.

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To all: is this a troll or is this just the way it goes in this forum? Guess I'll go back to the way things were and forget about this place.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the way it goes in this forum. PVN is trying to convince you to become an anarcho-capitalist: someone who thinks all government is evil or unnecessary and that society can be organized around unregulated capitalism. Its too bad you're leaving, I liked reading your posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh I see. Like a hippy with a gun?

So wouldn't it be more useful if the people who believe in democracy could discuss these issues without their threads being derailed by guys you can't reason with?

I mean, I assume most of the posters here are interested in talking about the way our lives are organized and how they can be altered through political means. So what's the value of someone like this messing it up? I mean, to be fair, did he even write one sentence that added anything worth reading?

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
Its too bad you're leaving, I liked reading your posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought you disliked posts in which posters called other posters names like "stupid" and "troll". [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: 20k foot view of school shooting
 

[ QUOTE ]
So wouldn't it be more useful if the people who believe in democracy could discuss these issues without their threads being derailed by guys you can't reason with?

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that you can't reason with me is your failing. It's good that you can be honest about it, at least.

I mean, I asked you for a reasonable justification for the policies you advocate, and all I got was "that's the way it works". Very reasoned.

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, I assume most of the posters here are interested in talking about the way our lives are organized and how they can be altered through political means. So what's the value of someone like this messing it up?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, I messed up your private planning session for bossing other people around and violently imposing your personal preferences on them?

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I mean, to be fair, did he even write one sentence that added anything worth reading?

[/ QUOTE ]

More personal attacks instead of "reasoned" response. Standard.