Cap the turn with AA ?
 

decent 10 handed 10-20 game, and I've got 0 reads as I'm newish to the game. I look down at AA in UTG+2.

UTG limps, I raise, MP calls, MP+1 raises, all fold (including blinds), UTG calls, I cap, remaining guys call.

4 people capped to the flop:

2 9 6 rainbow, I cheer.

checked to me, I bet, MP calls, MP+1 raises, UTG calls, I reraise, MP calls, MP+1 reraises again, UTG calls, I cap, all call.

At this point I'm a lot less concerned with MP+1, and a lot more curious about what the hell the 2 other dudes have.

turn:

3 (putting 2 clubs out)

Before I post results from other streets, is this pretty standard for you ? Do you keep showing aggression until one of the other 2 guys shows you something ? That MP+1 guy seems ready to keep firing with his QQ-KK. He seems ready to cap every street without concern about the other 2 guys. I can't help but get the feeling that he's going to cost me a lot of money to get to showdown, assuming I'm even beat.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

I'll add something I forgot to mention, since it makes the turn action more complete.

UTG bets, you...

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

Just because these dudes may not be good players (which most 10-20 donks aren't) doesn't mean they can't pick up a hand. This is a LOT of strength being shown, and IMO you're behind most of the time here. If you were heads up on MP+1 with your read, I'd have no problem putting in 3 bets on the turn. But you must respect the other two players.

Having said this, I'd call the turn bet. If the MP player raises his KK/QQ, fine. If the UTG player then 3-bets, I think you have to fold. What are you really beating here against typical 10-20 fishies? If the UTG just calls, you call too.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

Usually when you raise and someone else calls, an average player needs a minimum of 10,10 or AK to 3-ball you preflop.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

I agree.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

You have played it perfectly so far.Now you just need to raise this turn.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

you are so beat on this turn. this guy has at least two pair, probably a straight though. I would never raise this unless he's super bad and or spewy/random bad bluffy.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have played it perfectly so far.Now you just need to raise this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

And then gleefully call a 3-bet and potential cap? No thanks.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

I wouldn't mind hearing some more discussion about raise vs call. The way the hand has played so far, I think we all agree fold is impossible at this point (before the rest of the turn has played out)

What hand range does UTG have ? Why wouldn't he try and cr the turn instead ? Is he betting out knowing that MP+1 will do the raising for him ?

I'll post turn results after some more discussion, because the hand certainly gets more interesting as this goes along.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

UTG can have a wide range. If he's at all thinking, it's a great play to lead with a set. He slowplayed it on the flop while everyone else did the raising, and since everyone else is showing lots of strength, it's reasonable to assume that someone will raise, allowing him to 3-bet. If he just sucks, he might have TT or A9. Other option I see is 78c...

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

This hand is easier with reads. IF UTG is spewy there is definite merit in raising, but without reads, his sudden turn donk into a large field that has capped pre-flop and flop is scary (or some weird donk blocking bet). If MP+1 truly has KK or QQ, he very well may raise for you. Then if UTG 3-bets, you know you are toast and you can escape for one bet instead of 2.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

I believe that u r already beat. Most probably it is the UTG who has the set, since he limped in the first place ( unless he was slowplaying KK (not recommended, better with AA sometimes) so i would put him on 99 or to a lesser degree 66.

As for MP+1 he should have KK/QQ so as to 3 bet an early postion raiser and a cold caller , not excluding AKo or AKs.

MP is a total mystery maybe he got trapped between the 2 and refused to let his hand. so maybe he could have the open ended staight on the flop with 78s or 78o. after flop action we have 37 Sb/18 Bb.

On the turn, UTG leading shows in my opinion that he has the set and from the flop action considers that someone will raise him ,not willing for the hand to be checked around with 2 clubs on the board. MY opinion is to try to see the river as cheaply as possible since the pot has gotten this big. raising is out of the question. so if u call on the turn, MP+1 will raise, UTG will reraise , u fold.if UTG just calls, u can call since the MP hasnt shown any agression.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

I'd prolly just call the flop 3 bet and c/r the turn. Seems like a great time to do it.

As for your turn action. Just get to showdown, UTG coud have a set and he could have a flush draw and he could have TT and he could have 2 pair. Bottom line get to showdown.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

2 pairs not possible unless he started with 92,62, 96 .. which i find hard to believe to call 4 bets pre flop and 5 bets on the flop unless he is moron.
TT with all the raising i find it difficult for him to lead on the turn and not suspecting he is already against a bigger pair.

Flush draw, it is better for him to see the river as cheaply as possible so better to check the turn not lead

i cant see anything possible except for a set or maybe an overpair .
it is difficult to see the showdown if it is going to cost another fortune

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

Ya that was pretty much my thought process. I felt *mildy* weak, and decided to call. At the time I felt passive and figured I'd hear about it in here, but I couldn't find a way to raise

I call, MP calls, MP+1 raises (I laugh because I'm pretty sure I have this fool beat), and now...

UTG calls ???

At this point I'm stuck between raise and call. I'm starting to wonder if UTG has 2 pair, and he is reading MP+1 for a set. If that's the case, even though I'm sure I'm ahead of MP+1, I'm very sure I'm behind UTG. Only problem is I can't figure out a 2 pair combo other then something lame like 23s, or 69s. All the fish are misreading each other, and I'm stuck playing what I feel might be the best hand pretty passively. All call.

River:

River is a non flush 8. MP+1 already has chips lined up to bet. UTG checks. I'll spare asking the advice on this portion, because I think there won't be much of a concensus. I check, MP+1 bets, UTG calls.

you ?

I have a good feeling I know which posters will recommend raise. I'd just like to get into a discussion about that specifically, because this is one of those situations where I wonder if a passive player may be under-representing his hand, and is willing to take a passive line to see a showdown. If I'm wrong about that, I'm missing tons of value on the river. Easy cr ? Easy call ?

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

You went to the flop against 4 players you are a coinflip to win the hand. When you are beat you are beat and in this case you are drawing to two cards. Raising is out of the question. At 10/20 in a 4 way capped flop at least two people have middle pairs looking for a set. Fold your hand and move on.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You went to the flop against 4 players you are a coinflip to win the hand. When you are beat you are beat and in this case you are drawing to two cards. Raising is out of the question. At 10/20 in a 4 way capped flop at least two people have middle pairs looking for a set. Fold your hand and move on.

[/ QUOTE ]

where are you proposing the fold ?

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

according to my scenario since UTG just called , go ahead and raise

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
River:

River is a non flush 8. MP+1 already has chips lined up to bet. UTG checks. I'll spare asking the advice on this portion, because I think there won't be much of a concensus. I check, MP+1 bets, UTG calls.

you ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you're at the river in a pot this big you have to call for one bet.

A raise doesn't make a great deal of sense because you can't put anyone on a hand. UTG could have a set and decided to get extraordinarily timid. If MP +1 has the set (of nines) he'll punish you. It isn't clear how often you win here but it figures to be under 50%. A call seems best.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

I truly consider a fold on the turn. JMO Unless, I really believe these guys are complete idiots I don't think there are many hands that I am going to beat. What was the end result of the hand?

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

I don't know why but my gut says UTG has 222 or 666. I see the small pair limp out of position in 10/20 all the time trying to get multi way action and flop a set.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I truly consider a fold on the turn. JMO Unless, I really believe these guys are complete idiots I don't think there are many hands that I am going to beat. What was the end result of the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll post that later this afternoon. I think the reason I clearly didn't fold the turn was because I was quite certain of my read on MP+1. I felt that if I could just call UTG for 1 bet, I could see a showdown for 2 more total. Obviously MP+1 made the hand more annoying then it needed to be. But he was betting way too strong and quick for a set. I'd never seen anyone flop a set and just steam roll chips out like that. So he was not a concern to me.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

I see people steam roll chips with a set anytime it is multiway. If it were HU that would be a different situation all together.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I truly consider a fold on the turn. JMO Unless, I really believe these guys are complete idiots I don't think there are many hands that I am going to beat. What was the end result of the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting 17:1 you're considering folding what could be the best hand in a huge pot? If you're behind you've likley got 2 outs and we still believe we're ahead of MP1. Big pots are not the times to make big laydowns. Its the time when you put you're opponent on a weak hand and hope you beat it. Get to showdown cheaply and hope to scoop a huge pot. I've seen too many hands like this where 1 guy bets, you fold the guy you expect to raise call. River goes check check and you're hand woulda been good.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

A fold would be a disaster, and a raise would be a little spewy w/out reads (although sick if he's thinking LAG), I think you just call here.

If you know that MP+1 has an overpair, raising could be right, but I'm more scared of UTG at this point.

Re: Cap the turn with AA ?
 

Results time:

As stated, the pot was simply too big for me to fold to UTG on the turn. That was never a consideration for me. His call of MP+1's turn raise convinced me he was weak. Since I couldn't put him on any 2 pair combinations, I felt I was best. That having been said, I simply couldn't find a way to raise. As stated, MP+1 bet the river, all called.

results:

MP+1 : QQ
MP: K6o (I was floored by that)
UTG: Kh9h

I scoop it, and know I'm going to have fun at this table. I guess UTG block bet, and to some extent it got him a fairly cheap showdown. Looks like I had to dodge 8 outs on that one, so I was better then a coin flip to win it out. I just wish I had raised the river. Maybe that's too result oriented though.