tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

Villian is a 25/8/1.2 player

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>.

Flop: (5.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB.


If u put a player on a possible draw here (the flop) ... should u be 3-beting? or wait for a turn check raise when a blank hits? well thats what i was going to do but when the 3rd flush card dropped I didn't know how to play it and called down like a bum. Would i be right in thinking this turn is the perfect candidate for a bet/fold?

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

this looks fine to me. no dont fold.

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

[ QUOTE ]
this looks fine to me. no dont fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

holllllllllaaaa

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

Stat-wise, that's a pretty passive opponent. If he's on a flush draw, he'd probably check the turn. I might've 3 bet him on the flop.

I'm thinking the running 2 pair counterfeited him but I'm not sure I'd bet this river.

b

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

so you're saying if choosing whether to 3-bet the flop or ch-r the turn it depends on whether u think an opponent is likely of raising with a flush draw? I'd like to know for future reference. I suppose if you've seen a player raise with a flush draw for a free card before ... then 3-beting is the better option, otherwise you'll lose out on a turn bet by going for the check-raise. But against a passive opponent that gives u no reason to suspect he might be raising with a draw the way i played the hand is fine?

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

How many flush draw hands is in a 25/8 players range here? KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, JT are 6 combos. Of AJ alone there is 8 combos. Even if villain calls with lower sc's, which I doubt, its still not that big a part of his range IMO.

What I am trying to say is that I am not that scared of a flush draw so if I dont 3-bet the flop I raise the river. With the paired board he is less likely to 3-bet with a flush tho its not impossible.

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

[ QUOTE ]
so you're saying if choosing whether to 3-bet the flop or ch-r the turn it depends on whether u think an opponent is likely of raising with a flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it depends on the opponent. This opponents stats are pretty passive for a 6 max game.

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But against a passive opponent that gives u no reason to suspect he might be raising with a draw the way i played the hand is fine?

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Except you might want to find out if he has 2 pair on the flop instead of on the turn. This guys hand range might not be that wide to c/r the turn. If he caps the flop, you can go into call down mode(maybe even fold, but it might be too early for that). Remember, there's a reason we call them 'passive'.

Note that you also can be representing a flush draw by jamming the flop a little. Even though you're OOP. Your range should be wide enough here that he might bet the turn even after you 3 bet the flop.

b

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

I've slowly come to the realization that always trying to put the last raise in when you have the best hand in will result in a few big wins and a ton of huge losses.

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

well it turned out he had the flush with QT. Now play this hand again even though the player might be passive, knowing he is capable of raising the flop with a flush draw how should u approach it? 3-bet flop, bet/fold turn if flush drops? if flush doesn't hit turn ... bet/call if he raises? Im assuming if he's prepared to raise the turn here then we must accept we're beat - do you call to hit any possible outs? say the turn isn't a flush card and he just calls ur bet but the flush card comes on the river ... check/call? or should it be a bet/fold? would folding to a raise on the river against a "passive" player be a disciplined fold or a big mistake?

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

I think there is 47 possible hands villain can hold. KcQc, KcJc, KcTc, QcJc, QcTc, JcTc, AK(8 combos), AQ(6 combos), AJ(8combos), A7(6 combos), A6 (6combos), 77 (3 combos), 66 (3 combos) and AhAd. Against these hands we win 20, tie 6 and lose 21. Thus I would suggest a call on river.

I know I will probably get my ass kicked with this post, but I can take it [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]...

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

Rounder,

You answered your own question.

If you think he will raise a flush draw on the flop then yeah a 3-bet is good. If you have a strong enough read vs. a player that you can bet/fold then you should. You don't have that read yet though so there's not much else you can do in the original hand.

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think there is 47 possible hands villain can hold. KcQc, KcJc, KcTc, QcJc, QcTc, JcTc, AK(8 combos), AQ(6 combos), AJ(8combos), A7(6 combos), A6 (6combos), 77 (3 combos), 66 (3 combos) and AhAd. Against these hands we win 20, tie 6 and lose 21. Thus I would suggest a call on river.

I know I will probably get my ass kicked with this post, but I can take it [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]...

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense but who in their right mind could calculate his holdings in time to decide whether or not a call is profitable? I understand ur logic and agree with you, but surely there must be some rule of thumb that people use in a situation like this ... like the odds ur getting on the river?

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

i dont think there are enough combos of flush draws to warrant a flop 3bet. most players will fire again UI on the turn.

I think we're a dog and I don't think we should be looking for excuses to put more bets into the pot (or set ourselves up to fold later). especially when there are not many (any?) drawbacks to playing it passively.

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think there is 47 possible hands villain can hold. KcQc, KcJc, KcTc, QcJc, QcTc, JcTc, AK(8 combos), AQ(6 combos), AJ(8combos), A7(6 combos), A6 (6combos), 77 (3 combos), 66 (3 combos) and AhAd. Against these hands we win 20, tie 6 and lose 21. Thus I would suggest a call on river.

I know I will probably get my ass kicked with this post, but I can take it [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]...

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense but who in their right mind could calculate his holdings in time to decide whether or not a call is profitable? I understand ur logic and agree with you, but surely there must be some rule of thumb that people use in a situation like this ... like the odds ur getting on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there's a few people in the world who could do that. I know I can't. But calculating probabilities like this of the table helps me to get a better feel of how I often I hold the better hand at the table. Thats one way I try to improve my game...

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

Ok well I have another post here against the same player. And it's a situation I find myself in quite alot.

Cryptologic 2.00/4.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.00 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB.

Is this flop raise wrong? If so why ... I dont even know why I did it. I think it was to slow him down maybe, but is that ever a reason to raise someone?

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've slowly come to the realization that always trying to put the last raise in when you have the best hand in will result in a few big wins and a ton of huge losses.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you mean by this? I think you may have worded it poorly, as I see nothing wrong with raising and reraising when we have the best hand.

do you mean that putting in the last raise with a good but not great hand, like in this case, just sets us up to lose big pots when we get popped on the turn by a set/flush and we have build a pot that is too big to fold?

I would have 3bet the flop in this hand because I think a player with these stats has a worse ace here more often than 2pair or a set, but maybe I am wrong.

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this flop raise wrong? If so why ... I dont even know why I did it. I think it was to slow him down maybe, but is that ever a reason to raise someone?

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yeah the flop raise is terrible. It's bad because you are probably a dog, and raising only gets him off of worse hands or lets him punish you with better ones. "slow him down"?? I dont even know what that means. you just kept betting.

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

lol - god Im awful.

Maybe I meant take control. I think I wanted to know whether I was infront or not ... once again Im sure that is a reason u should never raise for. So in this hand I should just call and bet when he checks? Would it be right to simply call down the whole way with this hand?

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol - god Im awful.

Maybe I meant take control. I think I wanted to know whether I was infront or not ... once again Im sure that is a reason u should never raise for. So in this hand I should just call and bet when he checks? Would it be right to simply call down the whole way with this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

who cares if you're in front or not. you're going to spend at least 2BB to find out you're smoked and now you can't see the river (forfeit your 3outer). calling down costs 2.5bb.

yeah I just make sure a bet goes in on every street here.

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

Talking about the second hand with A9o in the hole:

I can't see a good reason to raise TPWK HU here. If he has air he may fold flop or c/f turn instead of fire a second barrel on the turn. If he has a better ace you only bloated the pot. I can't imagine he has a weaker ace since he 3-bet pf.

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

In this hand, I'd 3bet the flop. If he pops you on the turn, that's when you know you are in trouble. But for him to raise this flop, he's got to have AK or a worse ace or some kind of draw. I figure I'm ahead here often enough to 3bet. Then I just bet the turn. I think AQ is too strong here not to 3bet the flop.

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

[ QUOTE ]
well it turned out he had the flush with QT. Now play this hand again even though the player might be passive, knowing he is capable of raising the flop with a flush draw how should u approach it? 3-bet flop, bet/fold turn if flush drops? if flush doesn't hit turn ... bet/call if he raises? Im assuming if he's prepared to raise the turn here then we must accept we're beat - do you call to hit any possible outs? say the turn isn't a flush card and he just calls ur bet but the flush card comes on the river ... check/call? or should it be a bet/fold? would folding to a raise on the river against a "passive" player be a disciplined fold or a big mistake?

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Playing this player hard on the flop would make his turn play more predictable, wouldn't it?

Not sure I'd check fold on the river if that's when the flush hit. I mean, you are inducing a bet there. Though against this player you could probably get away with it.

b

Re: tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've slowly come to the realization that always trying to put the last raise in when you have the best hand in will result in a few big wins and a ton of huge losses.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you mean by this? I think you may have worded it poorly, as I see nothing wrong with raising and reraising when we have the best hand.

do you mean that putting in the last raise with a good but not great hand, like in this case, just sets us up to lose big pots when we get popped on the turn by a set/flush and we have build a pot that is too big to fold?

I would have 3bet the flop in this hand because I think a player with these stats has a worse ace here more often than 2pair or a set, but maybe I am wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. That's exactly what I meant.

Flop play is either way.