yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $3/$6
3 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Button: $600
Hero: $694
BB: $769.25

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $24</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $84</font>, BB folds, Button calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($174, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $120</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $240</font>,

i don't have much history with sub. he seems to be a very active preflop three-bettor and opens a lot from LP. He rarely has called my three-bets regardless of position (but again, not too many hands with him).

So on the flop, his minraise is sick because of stack sizes and on this flop there probably isn't alot i can call with. So i figure its a great spot to make me make a decision for my stack, without committing his stack.

I dunno if sub has any kind of read of me. But assuming i'm just some random 3/6 peon to him, what shoulud i do?

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

fold? I don't really think sub does this too much just to [censored] with your head or anything. You're rarely going to be ahead. As an aside: if you know that someone is capable of putting it in anytime postflop, don't you think there's less value in 3 betting marginal hands oop? I've played a decent amount with jeff and think that there's really not a lot of reasons for this, even though it's 3 handed.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

This hand is 100% about the dynamic that exists between you two and what you think he is capable of doing this with. Honestly there is a very slim chance anyone can answer this question better than you can.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

i think u played this meh, folding is kinda exploitable, but shoving is bad and calling (which i think u did) isnt so hot either. i guess dont rr or bet flop?

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

I think you'd need some real history/reads to go any further with that hand. Folding isn't really that exploitable.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

i would probably push

i remember from playing you your stats look real nitty, like 16/12, but you still 3-bet enough

so sub is probabyl just playing off that and figures he can get a real cheap bluff here, i dunno, i just cant see him playing a big hand here vs a player like you but who knows what your actual dynamic is

also if you want to continue with the hand i cant see doing anything but pushing, calling is meh and hes going to give up his bluffs and just take free cards to beat you

pot is big enough its ok to just take it down

folding is boring also

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

I would call and re-evaluate turn.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

Call flop, check turn, fold to a reasonable turn bet.

I think sub checks behind turn a lot if he's behind.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

Depends how wide he 3bets/cont bets from the blind doesn´t it..

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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Call flop, check turn, fold to a reasonable turn bet.

I think sub checks behind turn a lot if he's behind.

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this line seems wrong, however i play it this way alot. still seems wrong

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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i think u played this meh, folding is kinda exploitable, but shoving is bad and calling (which i think u did) isnt so hot either. i guess dont rr or bet flop?

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yeah i'd check the flop personally without much of a read

if folding is exploitable, then calling and shoving probably aren't both bad. personally i'm not too happy folding here since your hand looks like bs. his range after betting the flop is probably polarized between huge hands and hopeless hands so it's clear you can be taking a one-time shot. half the stacks are in the middle so he can probably count on you not bluffing the turn, so i don't mind a call just to see what you do on the turn. the turn is definitely not a good spot for you to bluff. he can easily have AK, AA, KK at that point, and you have to be worried that he makes a stubborn call with QQ or JJ getting 3-1. so i don't see you bluffing, unless you have spades, which i'd be absolutely shocked if you did. if he thinks you're kinda crazy or capable of shoving the turn half pot as a pure bluff then shoving the flop is fine, since he can't make money on the turn and can take you off lots of 3- or 6-out hands with a shove, hands that would otherwise get a free turn and river. and realize that if he flipped over his hand and showed you Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] you're getting the right price to call i think. so shoving to fold out those types of hands definitely has merit

note i'd much rather continue with A8 than 99 or TT. at least he has outs when behind, and if you're bullshitting with AQ, you only have 3 outs. so both shoving over and calling with A8 is better than TT or 99 (and with those hands he probably can't flat call, maybe unless he plans to bluff the river if a Q or J falls). with those hands i'd just fold, and probably not even bet the flop to begin with. here, shoving is almost certainly +EV, but maybe not more than calling.

it also helps that most people (and i assume especially on stars) 4-bet AK preflop, so his range of big hands is probably AA, 88, doubtful KQ/KJs, though AK is of course possible.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

you guys forgot a/b his backdoor flush draw! thats gotta count for something, eh?

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

am i the only one that checks this flop?

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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you guys forgot a/b his backdoor flush draw! thats gotta count for something, eh?

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only if we count his backdoor FH and Quad draws.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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Call flop, check turn, fold to a reasonable turn bet.

I think sub checks behind turn a lot if he's behind.

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this line seems wrong, however i play it this way alot. still seems wrong

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Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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i remember from playing you your stats look real nitty, like 16/12, but you still 3-bet enough

so sub is probabyl just playing off that and figures he can get a real cheap bluff here, i dunno, i just cant see him playing a big hand here vs a player like you but who knows what your actual dynamic is


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i dunno if sub has any kind of read of me, but if he does its probably not strong. since most of the pots are play with him are contested and won/lost preflop.

just as an aside, my #'s are not 16/12. I dunno how many hands you have that over, but its alot lower than my actual numbers, which, no matter how hard i try to get higher, always hover around 21/17.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

I shove

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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Call flop, check turn, fold to a reasonable turn bet.

I think sub checks behind turn a lot if he's behind.

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this is how i felt too. so i called.

the turn was the J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Is shoving or check/calling a better play at this point? At the time I shoved, but i think a c/c might be a better play.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

shove only gets called by what beats u, and very few hands that yer behind fold

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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shove only gets called by what beats u, and very few hands that yer behind fold

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Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

um id fold after he minraises.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

You kinda need to know what the minraise means to play correctly.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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and very few hands that yer behind fold

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I don't know about this. Seems like 99-QQ probably fold, and sometimes even some weaker kings.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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Call flop, check turn, fold to a reasonable turn bet.

I think sub checks behind turn a lot if he's behind.

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this is how i felt too. so i called.

the turn was the J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Is shoving or check/calling a better play at this point? At the time I shoved, but i think a c/c might be a better play.

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yeah shoving is pretty dumb

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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You kinda need to know what the minraise means to play correctly.

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bingo

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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and very few hands that yer behind fold

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I don't know about this. Seems like 99-QQ probably fold, and sometimes even some weaker kings.

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those hands aren't raising, and if they did they aren't folding

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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You kinda need to know what the minraise means to play correctly.

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bingo

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bingo? are you serious? that's like saying "in poker you should try to read hands and then act accordingly"

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

this is a really bad hand to post

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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shove only gets called by what beats u, and very few hands that yer behind fold

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why is that necessarily a bad thing? half your stack is in the middle. if he calls and checks the turn, he'll be getting 3-1. can he fold? will he end up making a crying call? shutting out your hands like QJ, JT, T9, etc. has value in itself, since you'll probably check and get 2 cards to catch 6 outs.

as i wrote earlier, if he shoves and flips over his hand, you'd call with JT! so of course there's value in pushing you out

Board: Ks 8s 4d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 71.010% 71.01% 00.00% 703 0.00 { Ad8d }
Hand 1: 28.990% 28.99% 00.00% 287 0.00 { JsTd }

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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this is a really bad hand to post

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sometimes you don't have a read on someone and you have to make the best possible decision vs the spectrum of all players. what's wrong with asking how to play that?

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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in poker you should try to read hands and then act accordingly

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bingo.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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in poker you should try to read hands and then act accordingly

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bingo.

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double bingo

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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shove only gets called by what beats u, and very few hands that yer behind fold

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lol this doesn't matter a whole lot when you've made the pot huge

btw I beat him in there w/ a shove

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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this is a really bad hand to post

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ok i feel compelled to post again since this is something i see all the time and i think it's bs. i hate to use an already overused expression but poker is "a game of incomplete information." you don't always have the luxury of knowing your opponent's game inside and out. sometimes you've played lots of hands with someone but not in that particular situation. sometimes you've never played with something but have 10k hands datamined and have to make the most off those stats. sometimes you see a guy you've never seen before but his screenname is "donkaments_busto_shipitcrucial" so you know he's probably some random 2p2er. but no matter what, you have to make the most of what you know

it's no different from having to make an educated guess as to what your opponent has. it's making a range. sometimes he has the nuts and sometimes he's bluffing. you have to figure out the %'s. it's no different when you're not sure if your 21/17 opponent is a spewy retard or a set miner postflop. you have to play the range of opponents just like you have to make a range of hands.

so let's say i deposit to stars tomorrow and find myself in the same situation vs the same player. i have to go based on what i know of yellowsub. i know he's a capable winning player. i know that he has an aggressive, tricky reputation. that's all i got. i can't magically KNOW how he plays in these situations. there's no "need a better raed" button on stars. if i went and posted this hand based on my history with him (ie none), would you tell me the same thing? how would that be a reasonable response. i can't make a decision based on something i don't know. i have to go based on what i do. if i failed to give you all available information, then that's my fault and you'd have every right to tell me that you can't help me out. but OP told us what he knows. it's not his fault that he doesn't know much. you can't sit with someone for the first time and magically have thousands of hands of experience.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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ok i feel compelled to post again since this is something i see all the time and i think it's bs

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I 100% agree with that. I hate moronish "bad hand to post", "not possible to answer without more info" bs answers.
I am glad Josh took time to express his opinion on that.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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this is a really bad hand to post

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ok i feel compelled to post again since this is something i see all the time and i think it's bs. i hate to use an already overused expression but poker is "a game of incomplete information." you don't always have the luxury of knowing your opponent's game inside and out. sometimes you've played lots of hands with someone but not in that particular situation. sometimes you've never played with something but have 10k hands datamined and have to make the most off those stats. sometimes you see a guy you've never seen before but his screenname is "donkaments_busto_shipitcrucial" so you know he's probably some random 2p2er. but no matter what, you have to make the most of what you know

it's no different from having to make an educated guess as to what your opponent has. it's making a range. sometimes he has the nuts and sometimes he's bluffing. you have to figure out the %'s. it's no different when you're not sure if your 21/17 opponent is a spewy retard or a set miner postflop. you have to play the range of opponents just like you have to make a range of hands.

so let's say i deposit to stars tomorrow and find myself in the same situation vs the same player. i have to go based on what i know of yellowsub. i know he's a capable winning player. i know that he has an aggressive, tricky reputation. that's all i got. i can't magically KNOW how he plays in these situations. there's no "need a better raed" button on stars. if i went and posted this hand based on my history with him (ie none), would you tell me the same thing? how would that be a reasonable response. i can't make a decision based on something i don't know. i have to go based on what i do. if i failed to give you all available information, then that's my fault and you'd have every right to tell me that you can't help me out. but OP told us what he knows. it's not his fault that he doesn't know much. you can't sit with someone for the first time and magically have thousands of hands of experience.

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You argue that there should be some "default line" that he can fall back on when he is readless.

Problem is that there is no good default line.

Option 1: fold-- too exploitable Yellowsub only has to have Legally blind fold 42% of the time to make it instantly profitable. Legally blind is obviously reraising alot if he folded 2nd pair everytime Yellow sub would make an instaprofit.

Option 2: Call/fold turn. Odds aren't good enough to call to spike an 8 or backdoorflush. Hands that Yellowsub might be bluffing with are either better than ours or have significant outs. We can checkdown and still lose. Also leave some% chance that we get bluffed out.

Option 3: Call/Call turn highly exploitable might as well push to minimize the damage of Suckouts.

Option 4: Push only profitable if yellowsub has AA KK AK 22 88 less than 50% of the time. Legally Blind can't assign Sub to a hand range, so throw that out the window.

Every option needs a read to proceed. In that sense it is terrible hand to post.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

I've always hated "take a marginal hand in a vacuum and analyze it." Only a 12 tabling hudbot has no reads. Reads are poker. You take what pertinent knowledge you have about a player and you apply it a new and different situations. That's why Player A can read the same books and posts, use the same preflop strategy as Player B and be better than player B.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

eh i want to explain what i meant, but i am way too stoned right now

tomorrow

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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Option 1: fold-- too exploitable Yellowsub only has to have Legally blind fold 42% of the time to make it instantly profitable. Legally blind is obviously reraising alot if he folded 2nd pair everytime Yellow sub would make an instaprofit.

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You confuse "exploitable" with "there is a strategy that is good against our line" which are two very diffrent things.
Also "he could make insta-profit" is not good enough argument against given line in multistreet poker games both theoretically and practically.

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Every option needs a read to proceed. In that sense it is terrible hand to post.

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Its the reason its great hand to post.
Lets assume you have some reads. Great ! Are they enough to make clear-cut decision ? If yes its bad hand to post. If not we are in very similair situation to "no reads" just a little changed in one direction or another. Still your 1-4 points would apply.

Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
 

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Option 2: Call/fold turn. Odds aren't good enough to call to spike an 8 or backdoorflush. Hands that Yellowsub might be bluffing with are either better than ours or have significant outs. We can checkdown and still lose. Also leave some% chance that we get bluffed out.

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if you're calling because you think you have the best hand, then not having sufficient pot odds is not an argument. and the chances that he bluffs given the action and size of the pot (all in is less than half pot) are pretty small. even without a read that's a pretty safe assumption. the only real problem is you're going to get sucked out on 25% of the time on average

the reason folding feels so exploitable is because he shouldn't be bet-folding. once you ignore that he once had the option of checking, i don't think folding sounds so bad

but how is this all so read-based? most players aren't capable of shoving it on the turn as a bluff. if i'm OP and i have AK, i'm just calling the flop to see if he wants to bluff the turn. sub has to fear that. so he won't bluff hardly ever. so basically he's just gambling that sub is bluffing right now and won't follow through. it's only 120 to 534 that that's the case. even if we ignore our suckout equity and say that he sucks out 25% of the time, it works out that if he's bluffing 25% of the time for it to be a good call. so how good a read do you really need to answer that one simple question of whether he's bluffing 25% of the time here?

to answer this question you can just put yourself in sub's situation since we can't think back to whether he's done this before and what he's had. it's 3-handed. you're sub and called your opponent's presumably wide 3-bet. he bets a K high dry flop. his range is probably pretty polarized between hands that can't take any heat and ones that want to get it in, because lots of the QQ and A8 type hands will check, while the hopeless T9dd hands will definitely fire. the pot is 300. it costs 120 to minraise to hopefully just push him off the hands that don't want to play anymore. does that sound like a good plan to you? it sounds like a good one to me. so is it safe to assume that even without ANY specific read of sub, that he MIGHT be capable of thinking like this? i'd say so. how many unpaired hands or pairs under 77 can he have preflop? probably a fair amount.

so we know he can be bluffing, and we know he needs to be bluffing 25%. we know there aren't that many big hands he can have but there are lots of unpaired cards like JTs and AQ, and he could be stabbing with like 66. so it's probably a reasonable assumption, even without a read, that he's bluffing enough, even if, in reality, yellowsub86 never bluffs here. you're playing against the range of players that fit his description

i just spewed a bunch of words but i hope it at least makes some sense