Life or Death
 

Big NL game at the XXXXX Casino. Button opens for $500, BB pushes his stack of 25k, Button looks back at his stack, sees he has 30k - and then keels over. Dead. He will be pushing up the daisies for now on, the player never got to state his action before kicking the bucket.

Whats the ruling?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Life or Death
 

Treat it as an all-in for $500 .. ?

Re: Life or Death
 

Yeah. Live disconnect protection kicks in I assume.

Re: Life or Death
 

How could this be anything other than a fold (for $500)?

Re: Life or Death
 

Who would take the dead guy's money? I'd say the $500 bet is off.

As an aside, I once witnessed a player having a seizure at a low limit table. Not sure if he was in a hand or not, but the floor took his chips as soon as EMS came.

Re: Life or Death
 

[ QUOTE ]
Big NL game at the XXXXX Casino. Button opens for $500, BB pushes his stack of 25k, Button looks back at his stack, sees he has 30k - and then keels over. Dead. He will be pushing up the daisies for now on, the player never got to state his action before kicking the bucket.

Whats the ruling?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I know this occurred once and the floor ruled "if the player is dead so his hand." After seeing disconnect protection on the internet I think I would be ok with allowing him to be all-in for the $500. I don't think I would even have a problem with calling the whole thing off and returning his $500 to his stack.

Re: Life or Death
 

BB should call the clock. Then the ruling is easy.

Anyway, isn't your hand dead if you're not in your chair to act? The keeling over part instead of slumping over in your chair is key. Plus, they're going to wheel him out without acting on his hand eventually.

Re: Life or Death
 

What is the over/under on how long it takes one of the other players to yell "SEAT OPEN"?

Re: Life or Death
 

If he slumps forward, and his lifeless head pushes his chips past the bet line, I think you'd have to rule this a call.

Re: Life or Death
 

Dead guy hit the bad Beat Jackpot. His family keeps half the chips, Pusher in the hand gets 25%, rest of table splits 25%.

Re: Life or Death
 

Dead money?

I think the ruling should be consistent with anyone who fails to act upon their hand because they are not at their seat or because a clock was called and they didn't act in time, a dead hand and he folds ($500 stays in).

Re: Life or Death
 

[ QUOTE ]
Treat it as an all-in for $500 .. ?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is one option that actually occurred a few years back in NYC when private games were rather common. But its not how they would rule in Las Vegas.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Life or Death
 

I can see several options here:

I think it's a general courtesy to other gamblers to off all unresolved bets with dead people. That's what I would do if I were the other side.

I would also be fine with some sort of all-in disconnect protection, especially if the dead guy were a 20-something in a hoodie. It's what he would have wanted [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

If the executor of his estate were in the poker room, I would have no problem with the estate finishing the hand (although proving who the executor is might be difficult on short notice).

Killing the hand, however, is IMO unfair and disrespectful to the dead. I'm sure it's what would happen most places though.

Re: Life or Death
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the executor of his estate were in the poker room, I would have no problem with the estate finishing the hand (although proving who the executor is might be difficult on short notice).

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even if the executor was already at the table as a player?

Re: Life or Death
 

[ QUOTE ]

If the executor of his estate were in the poker room, I would have no problem with the estate finishing the hand (although proving who the executor is might be difficult on short notice).


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How can you finish the hand if the dead guy cannot call the all in bet?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Life or Death
 

Kill his hand. Treat it as if he folded to the $24,500 re-raise. The re-raiser may want to allow the man's family to keep the $500 out of respect for the dead(I would), but that is purely at the re-raiser's discretion.

Re: Life or Death
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the executor of his estate were in the poker room, I would have no problem with the estate finishing the hand (although proving who the executor is might be difficult on short notice).

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even if the executor was already at the table as a player?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's folded out of the hand before the guy expired, why not?

Re: Life or Death
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If the executor of his estate were in the poker room, I would have no problem with the estate finishing the hand (although proving who the executor is might be difficult on short notice).


[/ QUOTE ]

How can you finish the hand if the dead guy cannot call the all in bet?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]That's what the executor is for. It's his job to manage the estate, including the estate's interest in this hand.

Of course, once the hand is finished the general rule that only natural persons can play poker kicks in.

Tongue firmly in cheek BTW [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Life or Death
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who would take the dead guy's money?

[/ QUOTE ]

well, it's not like he needs it anymore, eh.

[ QUOTE ]
the floor took his chips as soon as EMS came.

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presumably he could reclaim those later (assuming he survived)?

Re: Life or Death
 

[ QUOTE ]
Big NL game at the XXXXX Casino. Button opens for $500, BB pushes his stack of 25k, Button looks back at his stack, sees he has 30k - and then keels over. Dead. He will be pushing up the daisies for now on, the player never got to state his action before kicking the bucket.

Whats the ruling?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well in the eyes of the state, the dude that keels over is not officially dead until it is "called" by a medical professional. So technically the guy isn't dead and therefore his hand has to be treated as live and if he can't act, then he is folding.

Re: Life or Death
 

[ QUOTE ]
So technically the guy isn't dead and therefore his hand has to be treated as live and if he can't act, then he is folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the "best interest of the game" clause -- a rule that is "technically" in every casino's rulebook -- doesn't apply here, there's no point in having one. Also the casinos can save a lot of money by laying off the floorpeople and replacing them with Jetsons-style robots.

I mean, really, from a BIotG perspective, what purpose could possibly be served by killing the hand? Making an example out of the dying guy to prevent incorrigible angle-shooters from attempting one last maneuver by raising with a reverse implied-odds hand 30 seconds before they croak?

Both the all-in and full refund are fine in my book.

Re: Life or Death
 

[ QUOTE ]
Kill his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Life or Death
 

I understand that it sounds harsh, but should you punish the re-raiser? Even those saying that if this were the internet..., are actually off base. If it were the internet he would time out and have his hand folded. That is what I believe to be technically correct.

From the standpoint of being a decent human, if I were the re-raiser, I would allow him to take his money back.

Re: Life or Death
 

Your fallacy is that you treat failing to play the hand to completion as "punishment". Just because you get dealt two aces doesn't mean you're entitled to see a hand through to the end, much less that failure to do so (WHEN YOUR OPPONENT DIES, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!) is some sort of punishment.

It's a bad break, no different than when the dealer exposes your second ace and you get an offsuit four as the replacement. You'll survive it. Your opponent wasn't so lucky.

Re: Life or Death
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he slumps forward, and his lifeless head pushes his chips past the bet line, I think you'd have to rule this a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very nice.

Re: Life or Death
 

Call Mandalay Bay and ask. They have a rule for EVERYTHING.

Re: Life or Death
 

I understand your point about the guy dying. It sucks for him. It sucks for his family. However, the situation with the hand is what it is. He's facing action and fails to respond. Like I said in both of my posts, If I was the re-raiser, I would allow his $500 to go back in his stack. But, if I was the floor, I would decide the outcome of the hand in the way that is most consistent with written rules of the game.

It is punishing the re-raiser. He likely made the re-raise to take down the $500. If the bettors action (even if its dying) prevents that from happening, the re-raiser is being punished.

Again, the human element and the rules elements are two different things in this case.

Re: Life or Death
 

I thought that death renders many contracts null and void.
If in the middle of a contract one person dies, then the contract cannot be completed and therefore probably should be nullified giving the dead man his money back. The guy did not finish 'acting' out his wishes; albeit, he did a physically lay down but this is not symbolic.

My ruling would be to nullify the hand as incomplete due to death. If there were more players in the hand, the dead man's money would be returned as unplayable and others would continue.

Re: Life or Death
 

Guys & gals:

The ruling is the hand is dead, The villain wins the pot since his re-raise was not called. The casino will not discuss alternative options, it is purely at the discretion of the winner to offer the departed's estate a return of his initial pot commitment. The remaining chips will be counted, bagged, and stored for his estate's collection.

The moral of this story: If your gonna drop dead while in the middle of a pot, don't do it in Las Vegas because your hand will be as dead as your cold body.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Life or Death
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the bettors action (even if its dying) prevents that from happening, the re-raiser is being punished.

[/ QUOTE ]

We have widely different understandings of entitlement, and hence of terms like punished.

Re: Life or Death
 

As s side note, if it were NL KCL we might reasonably assume the hand killed him. In which case it might be necessary to kill the hand in return as a matter of justice.

Assuming it's a capital punishment state, of course.

Re: Life or Death
 

I wonder if this would hold up in court?

Re: Life or Death
 

I'm not really surprised by that ruling, but I can't see how it's in the BIotG.

Re: Life or Death
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if this would hold up in court?

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I think any other ruling wouldn't hold up in court. I also don't think the ruling is fair, but thats besides the point because its the most accurate option while remaining true to the rules of the game.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Life or Death
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if this would hold up in court?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think any other ruling wouldn't hold up in court. I also don't think the ruling is fair, but thats besides the point because its the most accurate option while remaining true to the rules of the game.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I only know of one occasion that a player died while in a hand. His hand was declared dead. It was a trivial matter as it was a low limit game. The other occasions I know of someone dieing at the poker table they were not in a hand. I have been in the room when somebody has died, but I have never been at the table when someone died. I was on the floor when i was certain a player was dead because it was clear form the sound of his falling that he was unconcious and nothign broke his fall.

Re: Life or Death
 

I’d say it should be ruled the same as if “time” is called. I am not familiar with the exact rules here - I assume once someone asks for the time clock to start and the player doesn’t make a decision in one minute (I assume it’s a minute) his hand is then ruled dead, right?

Re: Life or Death
 

This is like the NBA. If a players who is fouled cannot take the shots, the opposing team can pick anyone off the bench to come in to shoot the free throws.

In this case, the guy with 25K should be able to pick anyone in the room to come in to finish the hand.

He should pick a dealer, thus ensuring himself the max profit possible.

Re: Life or Death
 

His wife picks up the hand, gets a loan from the bank...

Re: Life or Death
 

Interesting side note - lets say the situation was different where the hero is playing a 100/200 NL game, he raises on the button for 15k with 50k behind him - the exact amount that he thinks the BB holds. BB sees the hero start to have a heart attack and pushes all in just before the button collapses - with 15,100 - exactly $100 more than the button raised (black chips play). Sucks to be the button eh?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Life or Death
 

I wonder what hand he held ... and if the stress of the particular holding contributed to his heart attack? I know my heart has skipped a beat during some rather stressful decisions at the table.

S.B.T.C [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]