pocket 4s in a turbo
 

opponent is terrible (in this game and on sharskscope)

he's on some kind of tilt and is raising alot pf

blinds are 25/50 and he has 900 chips and raises to 180 from the button

anyone push pocket fours here?

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

It looks like he's begging for action here, generally meaning he's holding a monster, no? Based on this notion I advocate folding this. You have a nice lead here, and will find a better spot to rinse him.

psari

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

How is he begging for action w a raise of 3.6X the Big Blind? As to OP's question: There is no clearcut answer.

A fold isnt bad IMO, an all-in reraise isn't bad if he folds, while ure a coinflip or way behind if he calls...I would reraise if I havent repopped too often before and oppt has shown a modicum of common sense and has been raising a lot..else, just fold and move on to the next hand. Pocket fours isnt exactly the Holy Grail of HU poker...Hell its only about 11 to 9 against a random hand. Goldmund

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
How is he begging for action w a raise of 3.6X the Big Blind?

[/ QUOTE ]

He has less than 10 BB's and is not necessarily trying to fend off action against his hand. His raise will commit him to basically any flop, so in essence I think he's committing his stack here. I don't know what limits OP plays, but from my experience in low limits, I have usually found this to mean a monster. Now I am not saying there are clearly defined rules in poker, especially heads-up, but based on the conditions of the game at that point, as well as my own experience in lower limits, this is my best guess. I am only giving my opinion, and by no means do I claim to be an expert.

psari

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

not much to go on, reraise all in

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

No he doesnt have less than 10BB's, he's got 18 big blinds left and raises to 3.6....He's leaving plenty of room for a fold. If the raise WERE 1/3 of his stack you could count on an all-in indeed I agree. As posted here he will fold his marginal hands I think. Read marginal as: A2-A6 off, QJ, KT, K9s etc. Goldmund


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How is he begging for action w a raise of 3.6X the Big Blind?

[/ QUOTE ]

He has less than 10 BB's and is not necessarily trying to fend off action against his hand. His raise will commit him to basically any flop, so in essence I think he's committing his stack here. I don't know what limits OP plays, but from my experience in low limits, I have usually found this to mean a monster. Now I am not saying there are clearly defined rules in poker, especially heads-up, but based on the conditions of the game at that point, as well as my own experience in lower limits, this is my best guess. I am only giving my opinion, and by no means do I claim to be an expert.

psari

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
No he doesnt have less than 10BB's, he's got 18 big blinds left and raises to 3.6

[/ QUOTE ]

My mistake Goldmund, I apologize. I don't know why I was so sure that I was reading the blinds as 50/100. As that is not the case I do agree with your original analysis.

psari

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

Push. You've got a decent chip lead, blinds are getting big and he's not going to go quietly. You're probably in a race if you get called, which isn't that bad a result.

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Push. You've got a decent chip lead, blinds are getting big and he's not going to go quietly. You're probably in a race if you get called, which isn't that bad a result.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing is fine but you can do better by trying the stop and go play . Since you're first to act , I would just call and then push all in on the flop . If he has two overcards , he will hit about one third of the time . If you push and he calls then you may be a marginal favourite , however the stop and go play adds more equity because if he doesn't hit , he'll be forced to fold on the flop .

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

This analysis is a bit lacking Jay...You also LOSE some equity with the stop-and-go, namely those times where he would have called all-in preflop, misses the flop and does not improve his hand.

There was an exhaustive analysis of the stop-and-go recently in one of the Mags, so I wont repeat that here. One question makes it a bit clearer though: If your opponent misses the flop for the preflop raise of about 1/6 of his stack would you rather have him fold for 5/6 or be in it with all of his chips, assuming he has overcards? I think the stack of Villain is too big/The preflop raise too small for a stop-and-go. Goldmund

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

Goldmund , i'm assuming that villian will almost certainly call .

I can show you mathematically why the stop and go play is more effective .

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

Jayshark wrote: [ QUOTE ]
I can show you mathematically why the stop and go play is more effective .

[/ QUOTE ]

I challenge you to do that for this specific situation. I don't think it would work out assuming effective stacks are 18 big blinds and A) Hero calls the preflop raise of (to)3.6 big blinds and moves all-in on any flop B) Villain would call an all-in reraise w two overcards to Hero's 44 and will call all-in if he pairs up.

It wont work because Hero wins 7.2 Big Blinds 2/3 of the time when he fires on the flop and Villain has missed. This nets him 3.6 big blinds compared to his starting stack. One third of the time Hero fires again and loses 14.6 big blinds when Villain pairs up and hero does not suck out. This leads to a total loss of 18 big blinds. You'd have to accomodate an extra 1 in 8 when Hero hits his set and wins the whole enchillada as well. So there is my challenge! I repeat: I think the stacks are too big/the preflop raise too small for the stop-and-go to be effective here. Goldmund

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

I worked it out and believe now that pushing is better but if villian had around 800 chips then stop and go would be the best choice . .

If you push all in and he calls , you will be at best a coin flip . Lets say you have a 50 % chance of winning the flip .

Ev= 900*0.5-850*0.5= 25 . That is , you win half of your bb back .

Now if you use the stop and go play watch what happens to your Ev .

You call an additional 130 which means there is 360 in the pot and villian has 720 chips remaining .

Ev(s and g | he folds ) = 360*(2/3)=240 Since if he doesn't hit and he has two overcards , he doesn't have the correct odds to continue .

Ev(s and g | he calls ) = 850*1/3 = 283.33 (283>240)

I've also simplified the problem because there will be times when you hit your set on the flop when villian calls , and there will be times when you suck out when you have the worst of it .

My intuition was slightly off but the decision is still a close one .

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

Your calculation is off I think Jay, let me summarize: Let's agree the all-in preflop is ev-neutral if villain has overcards, so we don't have to bother with that. That leads to the conclusion that whether we take it or not is simply a matter of taste.

Putting it real simple whether to stop-and-go or not comes down to this, disregarding set and re-suck scenarios: 1/3 of the time you're gonna lose 18 big blinds in the stop-and-go betting sequence and 2/3 of the time you're gonna win the 3.6 big blinds Villain put in preflop. Thats the net result of the stop-and-go. I dont see any doubt that the all-in is preferable preflop if Villain will call his whole stack with two overcards. One of us is missing something! I think it's you :-) Goldmund



[ QUOTE ]
I worked it out and believe now that pushing is better but if villian had around 800 chips then stop and go would be the best choice . .

If you push all in and he calls , you will be at best a coin flip . Lets say you have a 50 % chance of winning the flip .

Ev= 900*0.5-850*0.5= 25 . That is , you win half of your bb back .

Now if you use the stop and go play watch what happens to your Ev .

You call an additional 130 which means there is 360 in the pot and villian has 720 chips remaining .

Ev(s and g | he folds ) = 360*(2/3)=240 Since if he doesn't hit and he has two overcards , he doesn't have the correct odds to continue .

Ev(s and g | he calls ) = 850*1/3 = 283.33 (283>240)

I've also simplified the problem because there will be times when you hit your set on the flop when villian calls , and there will be times when you suck out when you have the worst of it .

My intuition was slightly off but the decision is still a close one .

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

Actually we shouldn't be disregarding the times when you suck out . It will affect out decisions since this may occur if you decide to push all in pre-flop .

Also you will lose 17 BB's because the BB(50) is not yours .

You will lose 17 *1/3 = 5.6 BB's
You will win 3.6+1 =4.6*2/3 = 3.06

Also , about 12 % of the time you hit a set and 8 % of the time , you will hit by the turn and river . This means 20 % of the time you will win 18(1/3)=6 bb's

6*0.2 = 1.2

Now as you can see , the decision is only off by about 1 BB .

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

Jay, the calculation is still negative for the stop-and-go
Plus we're operating with the assumption that Villain only has overcards. When he has an overpair, the whole idea that he will fold 2/3 of the time goes overboard. To summarize: the stop-and-go is really a lot more effective if you don't have to overbet the pot by a lot on the flop. Goldmund

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

I agree it's negative but not as much as you thought it was . You included heros BB as a loss which could affect the decision making . My intuition was off but my calculations were right on :P

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

Hehe...well we can call it a draw then and both retire from the battlefield without loss of face. I think the stop-and-go works best when you get to bet about 1/4 to 1/3 of your chips preflop. The all-in on the flop will then give your opponent 1.5 to 1 or 2 to 1 on a call. Stacks in given example, as you said, are just a tad too big. And technically we're not even talking about a stop-and-go in the OP's example since hero is calling preflop. Goldmund

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

I concur :P

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

wow, I think I must be missing ev because I've never really done a stop'n'go play like this.

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

"opponent is terrible"

In that case Fold and outplay him.
In this situation I will play Hellmuth hold'em.

Re: pocket 4s in a turbo
 

I only read the first few responses because it is very late... but it appears as an easy fold. Against a "terrible player" there is no reason to take a coinflip at 2:1 when there is a good chance your a behind anyways. I'd be more inclined to push with AJ here than 4's because I think a mid pair or mid-ace is fairly likely.

But is bet like someone did already say... commits him to most flops and any push from you preflop. Fold.

~rob