ATs
 

Villan is fairly loose PF but no other reads than that. We have no history together, and this is probably the 2nd time I've raised his BB in a blind battle. Whats your typical turn play here, a c/r or a double barrel?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $193.80
CO: $212.90
Button: $197
orange: $214.55
BB: $933.25

Pre-flop: (5 players) orange is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">orange raises to $7</font>, BB calls.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($14, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">orange bets $13</font>, BB calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($40, 2 players)
orange ?

Re: ATs
 

check/call?

Re: ATs
 

Bet again. He often has some junk draw and will call. If he was a manic aggro-tard I'd CRAI.

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bet again. He often has some junk hand and will fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

check

Re: ATs
 

i like a second barrel. he may put you on a draw but that's ok because you hit a nice turn.

Re: ATs
 

I like a c/c w/ plans of another c/c on non [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] rivers and c/r on [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] rivers.

Paul

Re: ATs
 

why aren't you betting the turn for value? is c/c getting more value? i think c/c looks like exactly what he has, a heart draw.

Re: ATs
 

Mostly bet. Not too big.

Re: ATs
 

paul is right again.

dang, paul is really good at cards

Re: ATs
 

What's the matter with potting it? Is potting it bad, such that you don't get the value of implied odds if you river a heart?

If you river a heart, do you think villain would call a c/r?

Unless he's insane, or had a flush draw himself, I think not.

I certainly DON'T want him to think I'm on a heart draw.

So, in this case, I'd probably:

Bet the turn at $30.

If he CALLS the turn and there's a heart on the river, THEN C/R AI. (representing a made hand that just lost to a flush, inducing a bluff). maybe, or underbet and go AI if he raises the underbet.

If he RAISES the turn, we're in trouble, as the $30 is intended partly as a blocking bet.

If there's no heart on the river, and he only called the turn, then I'd probably 3/4 pot bet unless the river may have improved him (an K or maybe Q on the river may be a coffin nail, and then it's possibly more of a check/fold situation.)



AB

Re: ATs
 

i'd bet 30. you'd really hate for him to check behind with a flush draw. if he raises it's kind of awkward but i guess you call and revaluate the river.

Re: ATs
 

WTF I don't get checking here at all. You have a monster and there are lots of worse hands villain will call with. We were given no read that he was an aggro bluff-tard which would change things.

Re: ATs
 

Hell never believe you for the T. Fire away, espcially if you ever make some second barrel bluffs.

Re: ATs
 

bet all day, twice on sundays.

Re: ATs
 

are there any merits in c/r over double barrel?

Re: ATs
 

you didn't say whether he was loose postflop. i'd c/r if he's a floater, of course.

Re: ATs
 

Its hard to tell how aggro he is, but his range is generally worse flush draw and lower PP's. Hell probably check behind with most of those hands. If you have been giving up alot after cbetting and folding to action, then CR. If you have been doing some double barreling, which I always do on this type of board, then bet here.

Re: ATs
 

Whats up with all the weak-tight crew? There is no other turn card I would rather see. This ten is &gt; ace or heart.

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Whats up with all the weak-tight crew? There is no other turn card I would rather see. This ten is &gt; ace or heart.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to make the flush over a pair.

Orange: w/o reads/stats, I think this is close. I'm thinking a CRAI is the best line if youve raised his BB once before. This is a board that is very floatable, and the T doesnt change much (in his mind).

Re: ATs
 

bet out 2/3 pot. or as much as you think he'll call on the turn. Plan to call any turn raise except a push.

If I've been double barreling often a bet here is pretty much automatic - if I'm pretty sure he'll fold to a turn bet then c/c.

if the river comes [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or an Ace plan to c/r all-in - otherwise c/c and hope he bluffs some worse hand that we can call and get value out of.

I think a fd is a big part of his range here and he isn't calling a river bet if he has the fd and it misses.

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whats up with all the weak-tight crew? There is no other turn card I would rather see. This ten is &gt; ace or heart.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to make the flush over a pair.

Orange: w/o reads/stats, I think this is close. I'm thinking a CRAI is the best line if youve raised his BB once before. This is a board that is very floatable, and the T doesnt change much (in his mind).

[/ QUOTE ]

a black ten is &gt; flush or ace because it conceals your hand and makes the possibility higher than your 2nd barrel is a bluff and more likely to get called. If the Ace or heart falls you will not make as much money (unless he also hits the flush)

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
are there any merits in c/r over double barrel?

[/ QUOTE ]

my opinion would be that either firing again here or a crai would work equally here. The difference to me is small, and would be read dependant. Does the paired flop lead us to any conclusions, iow does it make a random river more threatening?

Re: ATs
 

i don't like c/c and then c/r heart turn. people check behind way too often. i like a c/r here - the board is raggedy so i wouldn't expect him to check behind, we have a lot of equity if he calls or pushes, and i like to work a lot of c/r into my turn play.

Re: ATs
 

lets be real dudes

his range is:
FD
Float
Midpair
Flopped boat (we'll rule this out, cause if he has this then shiiite)

A FD often will not call a decent turn bet. A float certainly won't. The benefits of us checking the turn, him checking behind with a FD, and us both hitting on the river &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one bet from a midpair.

A lot of this is villain depending of course, but the more aggro they get, the better a passive-style line is on the turn here. Just remember that there's not much he can have that'll pay us off on the turn that wouldn't pay us off equally or more on the river.

Re: ATs
 

Checking is gross. Have you guys ever been to the mythical Valuetown? I bet all day every day here and don't bat an eye about it.

Re: ATs
 

he can be on everything if he only decides its time to defend is blind. so he can be on the deuce, but not probable since he would've raise the flop to cut the odds for the heart flush draw. so hes calling to see the turn and see the strenght of heros hand. i think a c/r attempt is no good here since he'll most surely check back if he as nothing. wich is high percentage... a second barrel is my choice.

Re: ATs
 

saintelucie-
[ QUOTE ]
a c/r attempt is no good here since he'll most surely check back if he has nothing

[/ QUOTE ]

if he often has nothing here, why are we betting?

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
saintelucie-
[ QUOTE ]
a c/r attempt is no good here since he'll most surely check back if he has nothing

[/ QUOTE ]

if he often has nothing here, why are we betting?

[/ QUOTE ]
yes thx good question. i guess my answer would be that we dont want villain to get a free high card that beats us like kqj.

Re: ATs
 

open shove the turn.

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
open shove the turn

[/ QUOTE ]
ew no

Re: ATs
 

Check/call the turn, then bet at river. Even if a non-heart J/Q/K rivers, I think 77/88/99 and even 67s/68s might call a river bet if you check/call the turn.

Of course, if villain gets crazy on the river with some kind of push over your river bet for 1/2 pot or so, you might consider that he could have flopped a monster and you might have to fold.

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
why aren't you betting the turn for value? is c/c getting more value? i think c/c looks like exactly what he has, a heart draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming villain has a pair lower than T, then c/c wins the amount you call (or 0 if he checks) + the amount of your bet on the river that he will likely call with his 1-pair hand.

Assuming villain has a flush draw and takes a free card, you make more on flush over flush if you let him get there.

I really think c/c might make more when you are ahead, and lose less when you're behind than betting the turn. The only disaster from checking would be that the free card gives villain an unlikely non-heart 2-pair or hits a J/K/Q on you.

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's the matter with potting it? Is potting it bad, such that you don't get the value of implied odds if you river a heart?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think potting the turn gets you what's in the pot and no more when you are ahead, and unnecessarily bloats the pot when you are behind.

I'm starting to think I might be pretty far off, since this is my third c/c post, and I'm just about the only one advocating c/c + bet the river.

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: ATs
 

I think check-raising here is perfect. How often are you going to fire at that flop and then give up on that turn? Balance it by blasting him on this occasion. Plus sometimes it'll go check-check and you'll get paid off on the river.

I think betting again is a waste of your hand. Except for maybe a worse T, which is a small part of his range, he's either folding or ahead.

Re: ATs
 

Bet. If you check and he checks behind and off peels a non-heart face card then you have a difficult decision. Betting will make your life much easier.

Re: ATs
 

I'm checkraising. He's betting the turn with more worse hands than he's calling with.

Re: ATs
 

c/r allin or just bet right out should be pretty standard here?

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Checking is gross. Have you guys ever been to the mythical Valuetown? I bet all day every day here and don't bat an eye about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

In some spots checking gets you more value than betting.

Way to be condescending though.

Paul

Re: ATs
 

LOL at whoever said he wouldnt call a near pot sized bet with a flush draw. People do that at 2knl, im sure they do it at 200nl too, if not more. Also, youd be surprised how often people get stuborn with low PPs and wont make you for the T or overpair. Unless we have been giving up alot and getting runover (which doesnt seem to be the case from OP) betting is far superior imo.

Re: ATs
 

those saying check, hahaha

bet 36