Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

In the WSOP ME, he correctly folded KK to AA preflop. Was this a really good play? A really bad play? Standard play? (I don't know much about donkament strategy)

Dunno, it was just kind of surprising to see anyone fold KK preflop, much less a celebrity amateur player.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

I believe that "correct" laydown has to be made 1 in 24 times, so I'm not sure if it's a "good" laydown or not.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

What were bet/raise sizes, stack sizes, player profiles, history between him and other player, etc.

Not standard play but it could be "correct" depending on situation.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

As i recall, he was getting more than 4 to 1 by the time he made that laydown so it was a bad fold.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

The other guy was pretty believeable when he all but told him he had aces.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

Hank Azaria plays in a pretty tough home game in L.A. and is a decent poker player.

No idea about the fold, though.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces, so it was an awful fold.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces

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Yes. Good read, still a bad play.

Given the chip counts, there was pretty much no point in even TRYING to read his opponent.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces, so it was an awful fold.

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not commenting on this specific play because i know nothing of the variables.
however this comment that he had the correct odds to call even if he knew his opponent had AA is fallacious.

this isn't a cash game and so pot odds are not the sole consideration when making a decision as one cannot rebuy and take advantage of the "long term".

i don't play many tournaments but i do know that a fundemental theory of tournament poker is that it is often times correct to pass on a marginal situation if it will prevent you from taking advantage of a much larger edge later on.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces, so it was an awful fold.

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This was not a cash game, it was the main event. He loses, he has to wait another year. Pot odds aren't everything.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces, so it was an awful fold.

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This was not a cash game, it was the main event. He loses, he has to wait another year. Pot odds aren't everything.

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The main event is just another poker tournament. Folding here is absolutely idiotic.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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i don't play many tournaments but i do know that a fundemental theory of tournament poker is that it is often times correct to pass on a marginal situation if it will prevent you from taking advantage of a much larger edge later on.

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we pretty much debunked that one a couple years ago

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

lol @ folding KK getting >4:1.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces, so it was an awful fold.

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This was not a cash game, it was the main event. He loses, he has to wait another year. Pot odds aren't everything.

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The main event is just another poker tournament. Folding here is absolutely idiotic.

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That's quite a statement. So, if you were at the WSOP ME and the first hand came and you got KK and your opponent went AI and showed you his AA you would call? Because it's only another tournament, right? Except for the fact that it pays 12 million to the winner and quite a bit of money all the way down the line. But you would always call with your KK against a known AA?

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces, so it was an awful fold.

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This was not a cash game, it was the main event. He loses, he has to wait another year. Pot odds aren't everything.

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I'm guessing you don't play too many tournaments

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces, so it was an awful fold.

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This was not a cash game, it was the main event. He loses, he has to wait another year. Pot odds aren't everything.

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The main event is just another poker tournament. Folding here is absolutely idiotic.

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That's quite a statement. So, if you were at the WSOP ME and the first hand came and you got KK and your opponent went AI and showed you his AA you would call? Because it's only another tournament, right? Except for the fact that it pays 12 million to the winner and quite a bit of money all the way down the line. But you would always call with your KK against a known AA?

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You know what's great? When people take someone's statement completely out of context and twist it in such a way as to make it obviously incorrect and then throw it back in their face. I totally dig when people troll with retarded [censored] like this.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces, so it was an awful fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
This was not a cash game, it was the main event. He loses, he has to wait another year. Pot odds aren't everything.

[/ QUOTE ]

The main event is just another poker tournament. Folding here is absolutely idiotic.

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That's quite a statement. So, if you were at the WSOP ME and the first hand came and you got KK and your opponent went AI and showed you his AA you would call? Because it's only another tournament, right? Except for the fact that it pays 12 million to the winner and quite a bit of money all the way down the line. But you would always call with your KK against a known AA?

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You know what's great? When people take someone's statement completely out of context and twist it in such a way as to make it obviously incorrect and then throw it back in their face. I totally dig when people troll with retarded [censored] like this.

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Ok. What did you mean then? The post you were replying to said he knew his opp had AA. It was very early at the ME. Please explain.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

Probably because on the first hand of the Main Event you aren't getting >4:1 pot odds to call. Unlike in the hand where Hank layed down Kings, when he had those pot odds.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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Probably because on the first hand of the Main Event you aren't getting >4:1 pot odds to call. Unlike in the hand where Hank layed down Kings, when he had those pot odds.

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Was he really getting those odds? I don't recall ESPN showing the stacks and bets since they weren't at the TV table.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

i specifically remember reading cardplayer's update on the hand and that there were a few posts on here that added up the raises/reraises/stack sizes, etc. and showed he was definitely getting better than 4:1.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

why is everyone wasting their time analyzing a hand played by Hank Azaria?

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

Given the pot odds AND the fact his opponent might not have AA you have to call. There is a chance your opponent is going nuts with QQ, AKs, or heck even the other KK. If it's like 10% it makes a big difference.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces, so it was an awful fold.

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not commenting on this specific play because i know nothing of the variables.
however this comment that he had the correct odds to call even if he knew his opponent had AA is fallacious.

this isn't a cash game and so pot odds are not the sole consideration when making a decision as one cannot rebuy and take advantage of the "long term".

i don't play many tournaments but i do know that a fundemental theory of tournament poker is that it is often times correct to pass on a marginal situation if it will prevent you from taking advantage of a much larger edge later on.

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Thank God someone said it, I've been losing my mind lately listen to players talk about getting the right pot odds to call with the worst hand in tournament play, even at WSOP FTs. I respect Rizen a lot as a player, but even he said this on last Tuesday's ESPN coverage he knew he had the worst hand but said he priced himself into the pot.

You need to have other considerations than pot odds in tournament play especially in the latter stages of a tournament. At the final table pot odds are nearly worthless when you know you have the worst hand. It's not like you're going to be at a WSOP FT next week (possible exception Jeff Madsen) but heck you might not make it back for ten years or ever. I really think this is a critical error in thinking.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces, so it was an awful fold.

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So just as an example, You're in the ME and you believe someone has aces to your kings. Then your choice is to push the rest of your chips in or keep half. It's still a terrible idea to fold?

I understand the math of it. But I've folded with a smile on my face before when the math tells me to call. It's certainly situational but depending on the chips he had left, where the blinds/antes were folding might have been a great option.

Don't get me wrong.... I don't think I could lay down KK pf unless he showed me AA. There are so many other variables.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

I don't know anything about the hand, but say I have 10k stack and get 6k+ in with KK, and I'm put all in, I'm not folding for my last 4k even if he flips up his AA. He's getting correct odds even if the op has the ONLY hand that beats him. As someone said before, I bet at least 10% of the time he doesn't have aces, and it is THAT point that makes the call manditory.

I'll love to see your longterm winnings if you continually fold in pots getting good odds even though you think you might not have the best hand...

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces, so it was an awful fold.

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not commenting on this specific play because i know nothing of the variables.
however this comment that he had the correct odds to call even if he knew his opponent had AA is fallacious.

this isn't a cash game and so pot odds are not the sole consideration when making a decision as one cannot rebuy and take advantage of the "long term".

i don't play many tournaments but i do know that a fundemental theory of tournament poker is that it is often times correct to pass on a marginal situation if it will prevent you from taking advantage of a much larger edge later on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank God someone said it, I've been losing my mind lately listen to players talk about getting the right pot odds to call with the worst hand in tournament play, even at WSOP FTs. I respect Rizen a lot as a player, but even he said this on last Tuesday's ESPN coverage he knew he had the worst hand but said he priced himself into the pot.

You need to have other considerations than pot odds in tournament play especially in the latter stages of a tournament. At the final table pot odds are nearly worthless when you know you have the worst hand. It's not like you're going to be at a WSOP FT next week (possible exception Jeff Madsen) but heck you might not make it back for ten years or ever. I really think this is a critical error in thinking.

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Well, you're wrong. Not much else I can say.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

Maybe the posters in this forum should just stick to making fun of Jamie Gold when referring to the ME.

Folding KK with 4-1 pot odds. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL........

You might as well just take chunks of your stack, walk around the room, and hand them to anyone wearing a green shirt. I mean, why not?

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

Pot odds are not the end all in poker decisions during a tournament.

Example:

Full table with average stacks about 100K. You are on the button with an average stack. Four players before you go all in and they each have you covered. You look down at 22. The pot is offering you >4 to 1. What do you do?

If it will help, the other players have AA, AA, KK, KK. You are sitting at almost 22% to win. Pot odds are clearly in your favor. Are you risking you tournament on your ducks?

You are in better shape on the above example than AA over KK. If the suit of both your kings are alive, you sit at 18.5%. If both covered, only 17%.

I believe that you can lay down an under pair during a tournament, even in the face of >4 to 1 odds if the situation dictates. You do not "always" call or "always" fold, the situation dictates your move.

My two cents.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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Are you risking you tournament

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OMG...my tourney life is on the line. Please no. I don't want to ever bust in a tourney. I will do whatever it takes to survive.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

I've layed down KK pre-flop twice in cash games (and been right both times - whew!) but I would never lay down KK pre-flop in any normal tournament situation.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

I can't tell what you saying in response to my post. My post had nothing to do with fearing elimination. It is question whether pot odds always dictate your action in a hand.

No money invested in the pot and you are getting 4 to 1, are your dueces good enough and you push or do you fold?

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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I can't tell what you saying in response to my post. My post had nothing to do with fearing elimination. It is question whether pot odds always dictate your action in a hand.

No money invested in the pot and you are getting 4 to 1, are your dueces good enough and you push or do you fold?

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It wasn't even really in response to your post specirfically. I have just been reading way too much results oriented survival type thinking lately and I had to vent.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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i specifically remember reading cardplayer's update on the hand and that there were a few posts on here that added up the raises/reraises/stack sizes, etc. and showed he was definitely getting better than 4:1.

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If you can find those I'd like to see it. Was it preflop or post? If it was post then he'd need a lot more than 4-1 to call since he was probably at least 10-1 against, worse if his suits were counterfeited. If it was pre then what were the stacks and would it have put him all in to call or did he cover the other guy?

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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I don't know anything about the hand, but say I have 10k stack and get 6k+ in with KK, and I'm put all in, I'm not folding for my last 4k even if he flips up his AA. He's getting correct odds even if the op has the ONLY hand that beats him. As someone said before, I bet at least 10% of the time he doesn't have aces, and it is THAT point that makes the call manditory.

I'll love to see your longterm winnings if you continually fold in pots getting good odds even though you think you might not have the best hand...

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I agree with you 100%. There are many times I feel confident that I'm beat but the odds say call and I do.

I'm only saying there have been times where I know I'm smoked. But I have odds to call, and I fold. Now usually that thought only pops in my head if my tournament life is at stake. If I have a decent stack I'll call with 2-7os if I have the odds and put my opponent on AK suited.

To me there's sometimes when you need to know the math but not go with it. I am NOT a pro. Maybe playing like that I'd never be one.

There have been times I've folded and people were like WTF no matter what you had you should have called, and I come back to win the whole thing.

I've also been a chip leader by more than 2x what the next chip leader had with 15 left and not made the final table.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces, so it was an awful fold.

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not commenting on this specific play because i know nothing of the variables.
however this comment that he had the correct odds to call even if he knew his opponent had AA is fallacious.

this isn't a cash game and so pot odds are not the sole consideration when making a decision as one cannot rebuy and take advantage of the "long term".

i don't play many tournaments but i do know that a fundemental theory of tournament poker is that it is often times correct to pass on a marginal situation if it will prevent you from taking advantage of a much larger edge later on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank God someone said it, I've been losing my mind lately listen to players talk about getting the right pot odds to call with the worst hand in tournament play, even at WSOP FTs. I respect Rizen a lot as a player, but even he said this on last Tuesday's ESPN coverage he knew he had the worst hand but said he priced himself into the pot.

You need to have other considerations than pot odds in tournament play especially in the latter stages of a tournament. At the final table pot odds are nearly worthless when you know you have the worst hand. It's not like you're going to be at a WSOP FT next week (possible exception Jeff Madsen) but heck you might not make it back for ten years or ever. I really think this is a critical error in thinking.

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Well, you're wrong. Not much else I can say.

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Right before your response is another post about "longterm" winnings.

So tell me how many WSOP FTs have you been to? When you get to one throw all the cash game pot odds stuff out the window. If I think I'm beat I'm laying it down, because every chip is so valuable I'm not putting it in when I don't think I have the best hand (or obviously a very good drawing hand). Those chips that I save will increase my FE, allow me to survive more orbits, and I also may get dealt AA the next hand, I'd rather save those chips for a spot I'm more likely to be ahead.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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So tell me how many WSOP FTs have you been to? When you get to one throw all the cash game pot odds stuff out the window. If I think I'm beat I'm laying it down, because every chip is so valuable I'm not putting it in when I don't think I have the best hand (or obviously a very good drawing hand). Those chips that I save will increase my FE, allow me to survive more orbits, and I also may get dealt AA the next hand, I'd rather save those chips for a spot I'm more likely to be ahead.

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I would fold AA if I was at the WSOP ME FT.

I mean, you don't really want to risk getting them cracked and then losing a shot at winning 12 million dollars, do you?
It's too big of a risk to take. At best you are only an 80% favorite to win. So, 20% of the time you will lose and not get 12 million. It's just too much to risk.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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So tell me how many WSOP FTs have you been to? When you get to one throw all the cash game pot odds stuff out the window. If I think I'm beat I'm laying it down, because every chip is so valuable I'm not putting it in when I don't think I have the best hand (or obviously a very good drawing hand). Those chips that I save will increase my FE, allow me to survive more orbits, and I also may get dealt AA the next hand, I'd rather save those chips for a spot I'm more likely to be ahead.

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I would fold AA if I was at the WSOP ME FT.

I mean, you don't really want to risk getting them cracked and then losing a shot at winning 12 million dollars, do you?
It's too big of a risk to take. At best you are only an 80% favorite to win. So, 20% of the time you will lose and not get 12 million. It's just too much to risk.

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You think I'm Rhett Butler some tight @ss that won't get in any pots, I'm NOT advocating that.

I think you're Richard Lee some gung ho maniac that refuses to listen to the evidence being presented to you in the hand and isn't going to get pushed around when you have a big hand like JJ even when it's fairly clear that your opponent has an overpair.

Oh and just for a refresher course on my part who made more money at this year's FT Rhett or Richard?

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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He had correct odds to call even if he knew for sure that his opponent had aces, so it was an awful fold.

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not commenting on this specific play because i know nothing of the variables.
however this comment that he had the correct odds to call even if he knew his opponent had AA is fallacious.

this isn't a cash game and so pot odds are not the sole consideration when making a decision as one cannot rebuy and take advantage of the "long term".

i don't play many tournaments but i do know that a fundemental theory of tournament poker is that it is often times correct to pass on a marginal situation if it will prevent you from taking advantage of a much larger edge later on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank God someone said it, I've been losing my mind lately listen to players talk about getting the right pot odds to call with the worst hand in tournament play, even at WSOP FTs. I respect Rizen a lot as a player, but even he said this on last Tuesday's ESPN coverage he knew he had the worst hand but said he priced himself into the pot.

You need to have other considerations than pot odds in tournament play especially in the latter stages of a tournament. At the final table pot odds are nearly worthless when you know you have the worst hand. It's not like you're going to be at a WSOP FT next week (possible exception Jeff Madsen) but heck you might not make it back for ten years or ever. I really think this is a critical error in thinking.

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so awesome.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

C'MON MAN. Richard Lee called off his entire 15 million chip stack after raising to 1 million w/ JJ (edit: well he didn't call it off but you know what I mean). It's a completely different situation altogether than the OP.

You don't fold KK in that spot getting 4:1. That is all.

Re: Hank Azaria laying down KK.....should I be impressed?
 

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C'MON MAN. Richard Lee called off his entire 15 million chip stack after raising to 1 million w/ JJ. It's a completely different situation altogether than the OP.

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Just so you understand I'm not some Pu$$y unwilling to play poker like Rhett Butler, but I'm going to do everything in my power to stay alive at a WSOP FT or late stages of the ME and not get in dominated even if that means laying down KK preflop.

For the record I've never laid down KK preflop in any cash game or tournament and would find it extremely hard to do so, but I'm going to the leave the door open as a possibility that one day I might do it, and if it's at the FT of a WSOP event, I won't give two craps about pot odds, I'd be much more inclined to think about what the next payout increase will be.

Also here is a post from the MTT forum a couple weeks ago about folding KK in the Borgata ME, it's a pretty good example of time to consider folding KK preflop IMO
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...3006&page=