AK unimproved river play
 

I raise AKo utg in a 6 handed online game. Folded to the sb who 3 bets, folded to me, I call.

SB is a very solid winning tag, on the aggressive side. Solid and for the most part straightforward.

Flop is T83 with 2 spades. He bets, I call. TUrn is offsuit Q. He checks, I check.

River is a low blank. He checks, I?

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

I don't have experience in these games.

What is he c/c'ing here? AJ? really? It seems like a bet would have to come with the hopes of folding out a split, really, because I just don't see him folding a hand like 77 after previous action.

You're UTG and raised, so he should weight your hand to the better end of your range. Its hard for me to think of too many hands in that range that would flat callt he flop and check behind that turn that hadn't whiffed by the river. So his river check is thinking you've whiffed and wouldn't call one anyways?

EDIT: I'm putting his range as some decent PPs and broadway-type hands. Just about every hand in this range bets the flop. Those that check the turn are the lower PPS and the draws, with the rare A9s or something thrown in, right?

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

He's calling 77.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

Wouldn't a tag player tend to bet fold 77 on the turn?

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

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Wouldn't a tag player tend to bet fold 77 on the turn?

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I would c/c c/c for fear of AK, KJ, spades, tons of [censored] that bluffraises. If I thought you were a fish calling station, sure I'd bet it.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

i would bet against most. if hes a weakish 25/18 is only time i would check behind. im starting to encounter these types a lot at 10-20.

you gotta bet against the loose aggro wanna outplay me everyfuckintime 33/24 assclowns. bet and punish that punk for stepping to you with a weaker ace. bet bc they would never play a pair that way, as they would never check a pair on the turn (and proly not river unless you owned them recently.)

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

wouldnt he value bet the river after you check the turn behind with a pair? i think you gotta bet this river vs everyone.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

If I check 77 on the turn and he checks behind, no way I fire at a blank river.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

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wouldnt he value bet the river after you check the turn behind with a pair?

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RIght, exactly.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

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If I check 77 on the turn and he checks behind, no way I fire at a blank river.

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yeah i dont get it either.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

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If I check 77 on the turn and he checks behind, no way I fire at a blank river.

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yeah i dont get it either.

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Why not? it's a good play

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

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If I check 77 on the turn and he checks behind, no way I fire at a blank river.

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yeah i dont get it either.

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Why not? it's a good play

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Because Victor will bet AK and tilt.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

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If I check 77 on the turn and he checks behind, no way I fire at a blank river.

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yeah i dont get it either.

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Why not? it's a good play

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the board is T83Qx with a flush draw on the flop and you didnt cap preflop so he doesnt think you can have AK. so what is he hoping for on the river by betting 77? that you call AJ? 66?

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

st you would NEVER check the turn or river here and i know it. you would likely call the river with kj. regardless, you dont fit this description "Solid and for the most part straightforward"

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

Yes.

When I check the turn, i've shown a lot of weakness. Let's say I have one of three holdings:

1) Marginal showdownable hand that is weaker than 77, like AK, AJ

2) WEak hand with no showdown value

3) Marginal showdownable hand that is stronger than 77.

Assuming I won't bluff if I have #2 (which I won't probably) he'd be correct to bet 77 against both 1 and 3 rather than check calling because i'm value betting #3

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

geormiet

your category 1 is AK and AJ, but like i said why would he expect you to have AK?

also if you think he doesnt have 99 or 77 here (i just think he can), the river seems like an easy value bet because according to you he can only have AK or AJ.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

geormiet is right, thats a really easy bet with 77 if the turn goes check/check...hell, its an easy bet for 22.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

geormiet,

Do you think he would call with AJ here?

Can he have something like A9s? Would he call with it?

If you think he would pay off with those hands I think you have a clear value bet. Yes, its pretty thin, but if he is indeed quite solid there are not many hands he can have here.

FWIW, I think a solid player should be check/folding AJ here if he knows you are solid.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

You can't just rule out AK because there was no cap pf. Maybe discount it slightly, but I routinely don't cap AK in spots like this against decent hand readers.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

I think he'd call with AJ but I'm not sure. A9 i'm almost sure he'd fold. Not that the hand strength is any different, but that's how people play.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

ok... it all depends on how likely he is to call with AJ. If he's not likely to call with it I'd probably check because the chance he either has a scared pocket pair or is going for a checkraise outweighs the chance he'll pay you off with worse. If he'll cal with AJ a lot def bet. I love these spots!

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

BTW A9 or A9s is not in his range after the pf action.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

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geormiet is right, thats a really easy bet with 77 if the turn goes check/check...hell, its an easy bet for 22.

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if you check, you think the guy is never bluffing because he knows you've taken a showdown line by checking the turn and then checking the river. so does he never bluff? or does he bluff because he knows you know you should never bluff?

also would you guys call with AJ no spade on this flop in this hand?

and if you have AJ or AK and this guy bets the river, do you call? really? you call there? seems crazy if his bet means that he's value betting (even if it is 77). you guys are clearly saying that he won't bet AK and AJ on the river, but that he will bet all these crappy pairs. so why would you call AJ or AK? so then why would he bet? i think it is very, very rarely a bluff when the turn goes check check and sb bets the river. i mean what can sb be bluffing here anyway? so then there's no value in his bet if the only hands we can have to call with are hands we wont call.

obviously it's a tangled web of bullshit but you see where im going. i mean, when does it become not a value bet and a check fold. if you think a solid player should check fold AJ on this river, why not do the same with 22 when they're nearly exactly the same?

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

I would check this river. The only hand that you beat that calls is AJ, right?

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

I routinely see A high and K high calldowns that look completely hopeless to me, even from this type of player . I would value bet 22 on the river against him all day in this siutation.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

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I would check this river. The only hand that you beat that calls is AJ, right?

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That was exactly what went through my mind in the hand. So I checked, and he had AJ. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

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I would check this river. The only hand that you beat that calls is AJ, right?

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but thats exactly what it looks like he has.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

yea he has AJ here a lot

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

If you bet here, it has to be for value. I can't imagine he's folding any pair. I'd check, and expect to lose most of the time.

no one answered
 

i'm revising the post with cards/suits and assuming villain bets the river.

I raise AKo utg in a 6 handed online game. Folded to the sb who 3 bets, folded to me, I call.

SB is a very solid winning tag, on the aggressive side. Solid and for the most part straightforward.

Flop is T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. He bets, I call.

Turn is Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. He checks, I check.

River is a 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. He bets,

are you guys actually calling this?

Re: no one answered
 

I'd bet 77 as well. Probably not a good river call for AK/AJ, but you don't think everyone does it?

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

check for info

Re: no one answered
 

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i'm revising the post with cards/suits and assuming villain bets the river.

I raise AKo utg in a 6 handed online game. Folded to the sb who 3 bets, folded to me, I call.

SB is a very solid winning tag, on the aggressive side. Solid and for the most part straightforward.

Flop is T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. He bets, I call.

Turn is Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. He checks, I check.

River is a 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. He bets,

are you guys actually calling this?

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It doesn't matter whether I call this. What matters is what most players will do, and YES most players will call.

Re: no one answered
 

I expect him to bet any pair on the end here a lot, so I'd bet.

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It doesn't matter whether I call this. What matters is what most players will do, and YES most players will call.

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QFT

Re: no one answered
 

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It doesn't matter whether I call this. What matters is what most players will do, and YES most players will call.

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I routinely don't cap AK in spots like this against decent hand readers.

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Ok, playing Mr. Obvious.........

It seems to me like you are saying: "he's good enough of a hand reader to know what the general populace cap preflop with and what how the general public plays ace high. He may even know what I cap or do not cap preflop with. However, he's not good enough to know how I play ace high on the river".

Is that right? If so I like the river bet. Although it takes some specific reads to rule out the chance of him trying to induce a bluff.

Re: no one answered
 

You're pretty much correct in what you say. Therefore, if the villian is playing his normal A game he should be able to fold AJ.

Some compelling reasons to bet, however:

-He pretty much has only AK or AJ here most of the time.

-If he's good enough to fold AJ, then he's could also fold AK.

-He only has to be tilting a little bit to convince himself to call with AJ.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

It's very rarely you'll find a player paying you off with AJ and this is the only hand you have value against, check it.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

huh? I see this payoff all the time in these games.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

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It's very rarely you'll find a player paying you off with AJ and this is the only hand you have value against, check it.

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huh, i see this call all day and i never bluff so its not some metagame thing.

Re: AK unimproved river play
 

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huh? I see this payoff all the time in these games.

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The problem is that he has 66, 77, 99 and is defense checking or is just stone cold folding. He doesn't have AJ often enough.