\"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

The nrog guy has been getting both a lot of abuse and praise in various threads, and such posts are sidetracking same. So I think we need a thread to discuss him and his organization and suggest posters post in this thread in the future when they disagree with him or his posts in general in an issue specific thread.

So to start out, I would like to ask the nrog guy the following questions:

1) Is the main source of your funds from dues paying members or offshore gambling concerns?

2) While most of us realize you can't be extremely specific about lobbying contacts, can you tell us what lobbying firm(s) you are using?

3) Would you object to providing the following type of source description for your various informational posts?:

-a) Low tier source - secretary or phone answerer who most likely doesn't know didly;

-b) Mid tier source - principal staff of a congressman/senator or senate/house committee (w/o mentioning the person's or his boss' name of course);

-c) Top tier source - senator/congressman or chief of staff;

-d) Other news source - taken from another news source or site with or without attribution.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

This thread is a terrible idea.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

No it's not. The credentials and primary interests, as well as the sources of information given by him are all relevant to his credibility. While it might seem that anyone who aids us is indeed our friend, that isn't necesarily true, and also is dependant on the assumption such aid really is being given. The PPA prez has (rightly IMO but to a point past what is fair) been critcized in this forum for either lack of effective action, or transparency of operations. The same standard needs to be applied to this nrog guy as well. The questions I asked are perfectly reasonable.

Also as I said, this issue of the nrog guy's credibility and whether he is giving primary new source info versus cribbing from other sources is a valid one as well, and such discussions are sidetracking other threads.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

why do you insist on harassing him

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

Josh,

Again the questions, similar to those asked of the PPA prez, are valid ones, as is the desire to keep such discussions in one thread instead of them sidetracking others.

So far, this guy is just a "You heard it here first! and we're working behind the scenes to defeat this!" n00b account, with no indication he should be given any credence, or that he isn't just racing to give info here gleaned from other news sources before someone else does with no true insider knowledge. So yes I am skeptical, but there is nothing wrong with that, and I am open to changing my view to a positive one if he seriously answers the valid questions I and others have asked.

I am just as fearful of the legistlation passing as you and others, but that doesn't mean I am just going to accept any new poster's assertions at face value without some kind of sourcing or credentials.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

so you could've asked him to verify himself rather than ask him a bunch of questions he won't answer regardless of who he is, questions that will do nothing but push him closer to not posting here. even if he gets ahead of himself sometimes, he's still on the same team as us

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

Josh,

His answers to those questions go a long way to verifying his credibility. There is no way they can't be answered for fear of compromising any true ability to act, as I specifically noted I didn't expect him to give people's actual names, or those of who is providing any funds he is using. And since as was demonstrated regarding the PPA guy, lobbying disclosure laws require certain info regarding same to be made publicly availabe if one knows where to search. So no breach of confidentiality there either.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
so you could've asked him to verify himself rather than ask him a bunch of questions he won't answer regardless of who he is, questions that will do nothing but push him closer to not posting here. even if he gets ahead of himself sometimes, he's still on the same team as us

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

ZB et al:

Those questions are asking him to verify himself. As I said, there is no real reason they can't be answered.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

Quit busting his balls. Instead of questioning the integrity of the guy who is doing the most in regards to this bill, try helping him out. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out a majority of his funding is coming from offshore sites.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

1)interesting question, should an answer one way or the other affect one's relationship with his organization? If so, how so and why?
2)Seems like a reasonable request. What is the downside to revealing the lobbying firm?
3)Less important I would think, his information will prove to be accurate or not in due time, although I don't necessarily see a reason to not answer this question.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

These questions seem legit.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

Guys chill out. BluffThis is asking the same thing (probably less) from the NROG guy that Mason and company is asked of PPA right?

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

Just a suggestion. How about postponing the inquisition until after the war?

Right now we need all the help we can get on our side.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just a suggestion. How about postponing the inquisition until after the war?

Right now we need all the help we can get on our side.

[/ QUOTE ]

Using your war analogy, we want to know if our General throws the grenade and not the pin.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
Guys chill out. BluffThis is asking the same thing (probably less) from the NROG guy that Mason and company is asked of PPA right?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is definitely NOT the same. PPA asks for money...NROG does not. As such, PPA has an obligation to be transparent and accountable regarding the specific way those funds are managed and the activities that are being funded. PPA critics would say that both transparency and disclosure are lacking with the PPA.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just a suggestion. How about postponing the inquisition until after the war?

Right now we need all the help we can get on our side.

[/ QUOTE ]



Using your war analogy, we want to know if our General throws the grenade and not the pin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really it matters not. A pin can be just as lethal as a grenade if used effecively, and it's certainly more artful.
A cold-war era spy once killed 27 people with a pin. [I just made that up; I think it sounds plausible [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]]

Jay is helpful, and he hasn't demanded money. If people don't like him they can ignore him. I'm puzzled by the attacks.

Start a new thread to demand answers from Frist. Now that would be real progress!

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just a suggestion. How about postponing the inquisition until after the war?

Right now we need all the help we can get on our side.

[/ QUOTE ]



Using your war analogy, we want to know if our General throws the grenade and not the pin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really it matters not. A pin can be just as lethal as a grenade if used effecively, and it's certainly more artful.
A cold-war era spy once killed 27 people with a pin. [I just made that up; I think it sounds plausible [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]]

Jay is helpful, and he hasn't demanded money. If people don't like him they can ignore him. I'm puzzled by the attacks.

Start a new thread to demand answers from Frist. Now that would be real progress!

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope NROG is a helpful ally in this, as I hope that PPA is doing something good behind the scenes, and also 2+2 does something more than a forum.

The only thing NROG has done on these boards to my knowledge is say "As of right now, Frist has failed and has quit" a few hours after this statement, it appeared that Frist was back on the warpath.

I personally would just like to know more about NROG and what it's doing that it can disclose. They haven't done anything to earn my trust as of now (not being neg, just haven't seen anything), I hope that view changes.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Guys chill out. BluffThis is asking the same thing (probably less) from the NROG guy that Mason and company is asked of PPA right?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is definitely NOT the same. PPA asks for money...NROG does not. As such, PPA has an obligation to be transparent and accountable regarding the specific way those funds are managed and the activities that are being funded. PPA critics would say that both transparency and disclosure are lacking with the PPA.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, NROG does ask for money.

It isn't like BluffThis is a mod threatening to ban NROG unless he provides this info. This is a very scary time for online poker players right now and BluffThis is concerned about getting credible information. If NROG doesn't provide that info, well that's his choice but that does say something about his credibility.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Guys chill out. BluffThis is asking the same thing (probably less) from the NROG guy that Mason and company is asked of PPA right?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is definitely NOT the same. PPA asks for money...NROG does not. As such, PPA has an obligation to be transparent and accountable regarding the specific way those funds are managed and the activities that are being funded. PPA critics would say that both transparency and disclosure are lacking with the PPA.

[/ QUOTE ]

PPA critics use the logic they are asking for money from us and should tell us everything. Just curious though, when we pay 20 bucks to join and get reimbursed 25 from Party how much came out of our pockets?

It also seems to me that even if they were totally transparent the same critics would do jack shiat anyway. Just a convenient excuse for the powers to be to do nothing. If you look hard enough (ie Nate's posts, the National call congress day etc.) you can get ample evidence they are spending the money where they should.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am just as fearful of the legistlation passing as you and others, but that doesn't mean I am just going to accept any new poster's assertions at face value without some kind of sourcing or credentials.



[/ QUOTE ]
I’m very fearful of this legislation being passed. Why do you need sourcing or credentials? Either he is doing some positive or not. If he is indeed doing good, why humiliate him and possibly create the situation where he doesn’t care as much and won’t try as hard. If he isn’t doing any good, who cares? Again, why bother humiliating him?

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

yukon,

I am in no way humiliating him. I am just asking valid questions. Note that his only contributions so far is posting supposedly insider news supposedly obtained from lobbying contacts, when it can be fairly argued he just cribbed that news from other news sources. Also the fact that he didn't come on the scene here until the last moment is significant as well. Whatever criticisms can be leveled at the PPA, they have been around a while. And since we in fact have a couple insiders here, as well as posters with access to daily/weekly congressional news, I just haven't seen anything different provided by him. Again, some honest answers to the questions I asked could go a long way to changing the views of many of us who are skeptics. With all the scams on the net involving asking for either voluntary donations or email and contact info, being skeptical but open-minded should be the attitude of an intelligent poker player.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
yukon,

I am in no way humiliating him. I am just asking valid questions. Note that his only contributions so far is posting supposedly insider news supposedly obtained from lobbying contacts, when it can be fairly argued he just cribbed that news from other news sources. Also the fact that he has come on the scene here until the last moment is significant as well. Whatever criticisms can be leveled at the PPA, they have been around a while. And since we in fact have a couple insiders here, as well as posters with access to daily/weekly congressional news, I just haven't seen anything different provided by him. Again, some honest answers to the questions I asked could go a long way to changing the views of many of us who are skeptics. With all the scams on the net involving asking for either voluntary donations or email and contact info, being skeptical but open-minded should be the attitude of an intelligent poker player.



[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, fair enough Bluffthis!, I respect all of your strategy posts and SMP posts. I re-read your op and it sounds ok, I guess I was just set off because it seems like a new poster has shown up on the scene and given us some hope. I would like to continue hearing what Jay has to say without the regulars here chasing him away and giving him grief without hearing him out.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I was just set off because it seems like a new poster has shown up on the scene and given us some hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Therein (for me) lies the problem. This guy shows up here and at other forums at the last possible minute acting like he's done so much and been at this for months.

The website domains weren't even registered until mid/late July - Even though they've been planning this for months? Great planning.

[ QUOTE ]
Our original strategic plan was created months before this latest attempt by Frist and was meant for launch later this year. When all this action started we used our own money and resources to get something up quick to try and stop the attempts. Our .org website is still a couple weeks away from getting online and we have several infrastructure issues we need to get done but we are out here and we are trying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm how much later this year exactly? After it passed the Senate? Excuse me but all this "action" started a long long time ago. That's when action was needed. That's when people needed to be involved. That's when donations would have been helpful. What good does waiting until the legislation passes the house with flying colors and is already in the Senate when it can be attached to the DoD bill do? This is your strategic plan you've been working on for months? Wait until late September? Well, I guess I could say, sounds like a plan.

And why's the .org site not working? It's hosted on the same machine as the .COM site. What "infrastructure" issues?

BTW NROG in what state was NROG incorporated and when were you issued 501c status and under what name? NROG, Save Online Gaming and National Right for Online Gaming aren't found in the IRS 501c online database.

And FWIW, perhaps not much, but the saveonlinegamine.com and nrog.org sites were both registered by a Jason Bailey @ skyycorp. The skyycorp.com domain was registered by the same @ truemediamarketing.com. Read that again. True Media MARKETING.

Marketing = Sales people. Coincidence that NROG comes here and sells the majority on the idea that they are actually spending all those donations on the things they recommend they be spent on?

As of 30 days ago NROG had exactly 0 donors via Pay Pal.
[image]http://www.flickr.com/photos/14841728@N00/253677234/[/image]

The PayPal account wasn't even set up until July 27th! Yet in his original post here he thanked the thousands who had joined and for all the donations. Thousands? Well, they've got 1 poster in their forums so I guess that 1 could represent thousands. Right?

And how is it that someone so invested in online gaming and this legislation had not even heard of 2+2 until a few days ago??

NROG comes here, out of nowhere at the last possible minute when people are in a frenzy, wanting to (finally) actually do something, gives a sales pitch, making it sound like NROG's been working in DC all along. At the same time we now see this at the saveonlinegaming.COM site:

[ QUOTE ]
We will soon be introducing detailed membership rewards. This will include a donation match of up to 100% into particpating partner poker rooms. We expect this rollout in the next two weeks and ALL rewards will be retroactive so donate TODAY. Thank You!

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't know how affiliate agreements work read up on 'em.

We all love NROG - they do so much. They come here and confirm things that seem to come off an RSS feed. They're on our side. Let's give 'em money!! Money for what? Just because they have a strategic plan posted on their website doesn't mean they are actually doing anything (besides spamming forums). In fact it states in the plan that it is their "recommendation." That's it. Just a recommendation.

Apparently implementing the plan will cost 2M. Yet, the nrog.org and saveonlinegaming domains weren't even registered until mid/late July. PayPal wasn't set up until July 27. According to the plan which is supposed to be implemented over the course of 2 months, that would leave (at best) 1.5 months to raise 2M (by Sept. 5th(?) when the Senate reconvened). WTF? You need to raise 2M in 1.5 months but you don't even hear about 2+2 until Sept 20. Great work. Experts you are. Really.

NROG may have the best intentions but it is obvious (to some of us anyway) that they are clueless. At this point, you'd get more for you money if you sent it to any anti-gambling Congressperson's opponent.

PPA may or may not be doing much but what they certainly didn't do is appear out of nowhere at the last possible (too late) minute claiming to be some grassroots/lobbying group with top secret inside contacts who've been at this for months.

For those who buy this on nothing more than some random poster's say so? I got some quads I wanna sell your boat.

NROG comes here, "releases" already reported information and people attribute any success to NROG. What if it were PPA who was first in to "release" said information? Via sales tactics they get people to believe they've actually done something, people love them, people donate money. Simple.

And what's NROG to do with the money at this late date when this thing could very well be law by the end of the week? Use it to fund the donation matching at established poker room accounts? Oh or do I have to be a new account in order to qualify for donation matching?

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

satya,

Very nice legwork and investigation. Looks indeed like this guy is just a spammer collecting email addresses, maybe even a poker affiliate.

The silence now from all his nut-huggers who trashed me and others for questioning his intentions and bona fides is deafening.

Again, good job.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

Oh, snap.

Really like to see a rebuttal from Jay, but I doubt that will happen.

Tuco.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
The silence now from all his nut-huggers who trashed me and others for questioning his intentions and bona fides is deafening.


[/ QUOTE ]
BluffThis! If I trashed you, sorry. Satya's post was a real eye opener for this overly naive person.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

Well...hi guys. Looks like you've all been busy today. Hopefully you had some time to make calls to DC and write to your local papers about what's going on in Washington.

That being said I'll give you my response to your questions/concerns.

If you read our very first posting I explained almost everything you guys bring up today. NROG was formed by myself and my business partner, Brian Jakusik. Both of us have very deep radio and marketing backgrounds and YES we make no bones about it...we own a marketing agency who, for years, has catered to many offshore gambling sites. We're not hiding anything here. We have a business as well as our own rights to protect. True Media/Skyy (new name) is our agency and they have been handling a lot of our marketing efforts...free of charge. Its also important to note that Brian and I do not take one penny for a salary. We're fortunate enough to have done well in our past positions that we can devote all of our time to this and not pull a paycheck. Again...let me stress...NROG has not paid for any agency work. It has been donated. ALL funds thus far have been from my and Brian’s personal bank account.

As far as when we formed: When we began to get a good idea of how bad lobbying efforts were going in DC we decided to step in. As marketing guys we understand the importance of media. Until now, not one group fighting this fight has taken this message to the people. I'm not saying they're doing it wrong. I'm saying I believe we can make a better statement if a large part of the country gets behind this rather than just a few thousand. Our initial reports from DC back in June were that the House may act on bill (it did…HR4411) but the Senate would stall this bill so we had time to build our infrastructure. Our plans were to launch around elections. However, when Frist started going crazy we knew we had to step in and try to get some sort of army built who may be able to stop it. We setup a temporary website (www.saveonlinegaming.com), a temporary payment system (paypal) and got ourselves out as best we could. Our official .org site is just about done, our payment accounts, etc are in place and we’re almost ready to launch the systems we started building at the beginning. We're getting up and running as fast as we can. We could have sat back and watched this from a distance but what message would that send to you? That we hid from the tough fight and showed up after the dust settled. We would have no part of that strategy. We put our gear on, spent OUR PERSONAL money and hopped in this fight with you.

What do we get in return? This ONE forum tearing us apart everyday for what is STILL accurate information and still an organization who is trying hard to fight Congress! Never have we released information that wasn't true. You know what, guys? We're going to keep fighting. We'll keep working away to protect our rights and your rights no matter how much you disagree and no matter what you “google” on us and our partners.

Before I came on here today we met to decide if we should abandon the forums for this very reason. We are now on countless forums and felt it was a great way to communicate with you in your day to day life. It was discussed stopping our posts on 2+2 so we could stop wasting time answering critics and spend more time working with those that can actually help us. I and a few others disagreed and we decided we'll monitor how things go before pulling the plug. I'm not saying you can't question us...please do...we're a non-profit (out of Massachusetts by the way)...so everything should be disclosed to you and we should have to answer to your concerns. BUT maybe you can find a better way to do this. What do you all get out of posting hatred or conspiracy theories? There's no reason for it. If you have a question...do what dozens of others have done...call me...email me. My line and email are always open to talk to you and help you through your concerns. [email protected] or 800-724-8334 ext. 83

I hope you'll continue to be active with or without us here. I hope you'll support any legitimate organization who will fight for your rights. And I hope you'll find a way to trust us, embrace our fight and work with us to win this battle.

Thanks for your time gents (and ladies)

JayB
NROG

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

Wow, a con man's (what marketing people are) smooth story-like reply without really answering any questions but just still acting like the white knight on a shining horse who just needs us all to trust him a little longer.

And the most important thing is he didn't really assert any lobbying being done and thus can't really have any inside info, excpet as satya and I have noted, from other news sources.

nrog, you are one slick mofo. Just calmly not addressing the criticisms and continuing on with your spin.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

Bluffthis:

1) a little of both right now. When the &#@$ started hitting the fan many of our large donors (from overseas) started holding their checks. Not taking them away...just holding them to see what happens. We get very few donations from members. As of today $3,100 has come in from our nearly 17,000 members. Other funding source? My bank account and my partner's bank account.

2) I can tell you if you research lobbying firms ours is one of the best and works with several key groups already. We're very happy with teh short term results so far.

3) NROG never uses low level sources (i.e. receptionists). Our sources are A. our lobbyists. B. mid level and senior aides. and C. we have two very influencial folks that couldn't be any closer to two of the key players involved. Just another reason we felt comfortable getting involved with this fight. These two folks (again...remember they are two out of nearly a dozen different sources) are KEY. We're very grateful to all our those who are helping us gather reliable information like the information we have already released regarding the DoD bill and future attempts.

Hope this helps.

jayB

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

Bluff...I believe I answered all the concerns I read about. YOur questions were answered seperately on your post.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

Please keep posting...

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

nrog,

1) Name your lobbying firm, so we can see if you're on their client list in their required disclosure filings.

2) Host a pdf image file of your non-profit docs on imageshack or something and provide a link to same.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

Bluffthis:

NROG was officially incorporated in July which means our tax staus will not be available (IRS docs/search) for another 7 or 8 months. Its retroactive to our first day of business. I'm sure our accountant and our attorneys have what they need to make sure we're all set but this may be the reason why you are not finding us. Forgive my ignorance on this issue...I didn't file all the paperwork...our attorneys did. As far as our corporate documents I'm sure I can get a pdf and I'll happily email them to you. Please supply your email but it will have to wait until tomorrow when i return to the office (i'm heading out momentarily). I hope that works. You will not find our name on our lobbying firms filings yet because we JUST hired them 4-5 weeks ago when all this started lighting up. I'm open and will do what I can...nothing to hide here. I just hope that we can satisfy your needs soon so we can get these postings back to what they should be about and that it whats is the next move by Congress and how we can actively fight them.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

nrog,

You still, unless I have missed it, haven't named your lobbying firm, regardless of whether you would yet show up in any such filings of same.

Or wait a minute! Did you name your "lobbying firm"? Is it your own maketing company and you and your bud are the lobbyists?

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
nrog,

You still, unless I have missed it, haven't named your lobbying firm, regardless of whether you would yet show up in any such filings of same.

Or wait a minute! Did you name your "lobbying firm"? Is it your own maketing company and you and your bud are the lobbyists?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bluff,

Is it your sole intent by starting this thread to drive away a quality poster who many of us value? Because, quite frankly, he's been more patient with answering your stupid ass questions than most other people would be.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

dustyn,

He hasn't yet really contributed anything that can't be gleaned from other news sources or our own long time insiders. And he's doing everything possible to prevent us checking his bona fides. Which is why I want the name of a lobbying firm, because even if their clients for this year aren't on file yet, a verification of that lobbying firm's own creds and a simple phone call to them can clear all this up.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
dustyn,

He hasn't yet really contributed anything that can't be gleaned from other news sources or our own long time insiders. And he's doing everything possible to prevent us checking his bona fides. Which is why I want the name of a lobbying firm, because even if their clients for this year aren't on file yet, a verification of that lobbying firm's own creds and a simple phone call to them can clear all this up.

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't answer my question, which is, ironically, exactly what you are accusing him of.

Re: \"Official\" nrog guy/org thread
 

dustyn,

My intent in this thread is to see if he is either a scammer, someone using this issue for his own other reasons (and I have a theory on this), or someone legit. He has insinutated he has a lobbying firm and it should be no problem for him to name same.

Constructive criticism ?
 

Some constructive criticism from someone with both lobbying and current online poker experience, PLUS a rash of largely self-inflicted scars from overly hubristic 2+2 posts.

"an organization who is trying hard to fight Congress!"

Point 1 .... a lobbyist is not supposed to "fight Congress".

Point 2. .... Lobbying is very different than either radio or marketing.

Your radio/marketing expertise is VERY welcome in opposition to the attempts to ban online poker. (PPA was criticized by me for lacking such a grassroots focus.) Please raise as much public awareness and support for this cause as possible.

However, you really come across as trying to claim the exclusive knowledge of Hill happenings, in a forum filled with actual lobbyists who are ALSO volunteering their time.

Further, some of the hype you've floated lacked credibility and,

Point 3, you can and should admit your occasional clear mistakes of both factual accuracy and judgement.

Finally, feel free to admit that you could stand to make some money from your site, whether as a poker affiliate, database collector or otherwise. Frankly, no one would think the less of you.