I hate calling to fold the river.....
 

Villain is 37/25/1.7 over 168

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.20 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.20 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.20 BB

This play seems odd to me but I was told it's correct.

Re: I hate calling to fold the river.....
 

If you're going to call the turn, call the river. No reason to put him on an ace, and if you put him on 7 or an 8, as opposed to a draw, then you really don't have odds to call the turn with your ISD.

Whether to call the turn, I dunno.

Re: I hate calling to fold the river.....
 

I like this. Depending on the player, though, I think that a turn raise might be better.

Re: I hate calling to fold the river.....
 

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If you're going to call the turn, call the river. No reason to put him on an ace, and if you put him on 7 or an 8, as opposed to a draw, then you really don't have odds to call the turn with your ISD.

Whether to call the turn, I dunno.

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Hey Grisgra,

When the ace comes, really the only hands that hero is still ahead of are draws that villain is still bluffing with. I guess you are saying that you think the chance of villain having such a draw is enough to justify a river call, is that right? Given his stats, on second thought, you may be right... but it seems close.

Re: I hate calling to fold the river.....
 

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If you're going to call the turn, call the river. No reason to put him on an ace, and if you put him on 7 or an 8, as opposed to a draw, then you really don't have odds to call the turn with your ISD.

Whether to call the turn, I dunno.

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Hey Grisgra,

When the ace comes, really the only hands that hero is still ahead of are draws that villain is still bluffing with. I guess you are saying that you think the chance of villain having such a draw is enough to justify a river call, is that right? Given his stats, on second thought, you may be right... but it seems close.

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It's just that there was no preflop raise from the BB, and there's no obvious reason why he'd checkraise the flop with an ace, unless it was exactly A4. I don't put the BB on an ace here, so the fact that the ace fell means little to me -- if anything it makes me think he's bluffing a bit more, as a 8 or 7 might check to the preflop raiser here thinking he might now be behind -- but a broken flush draw will think it's a scare card and keep hammering.

Re: I hate calling to fold the river.....
 

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If you're going to call the turn, call the river. No reason to put him on an ace, and if you put him on 7 or an 8, as opposed to a draw, then you really don't have odds to call the turn with your ISD.

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WTF? Calling the turn does not mean you have to call the river. It's true that he probably doesn't have an ace but him betting into an ace on the river makes it much more likely that he has a hand.

Krishan

Re: I hate calling to fold the river.....
 

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It's true that he probably doesn't have an ace but him betting into an ace on the river makes it much more likely that he has a hand.


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I agree that the A makes him much more likely to give up on his missed draw bluff, IF he's a smart player. But given this guys stats I'm not so sure he's smart.

Re: I hate calling to fold the river.....
 

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If you're going to call the turn, call the river. No reason to put him on an ace, and if you put him on 7 or an 8, as opposed to a draw, then you really don't have odds to call the turn with your ISD.

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WTF? Calling the turn does not mean you have to call the river. It's true that he probably doesn't have an ace but him betting into an ace on the river makes it much more likely that he has a hand.

Krishan

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If we call on the turn then we think there's a reasonable percentage chance he's on a draw, given we only have 6 outs, and some of them might lead to a chop. Thus, getting 7:1 on the river, and having no reason to think villain has an ace, I think that a call is in order; it's at worst neutral EV IMO, and we get info on his hand.

I'm not saying whether folding the turn is correct vs calling the turn, calling the river, but calling the turn, folding the river seems a bit off to me given we don't call the turn unless we think he might be bluffing.

I would agree that if we have a specific read that this player will bluff the flop and turn but give up specifically on the river (even though a scare card hit), then calling the turn, folding the river is okay. We don't have that read, and I'm not willing to just assume it.

Re: I hate calling to fold the river.....
 

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Hey Grisgra,

When the ace comes, really the only hands that hero is still ahead of are draws that villain is still bluffing with. I guess you are saying that you think the chance of villain having such a draw is enough to justify a river call, is that right? Given his stats, on second thought, you may be right... but it seems close.

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That's exactly right. It's a flop that has a lot of draws, and I don't think we have odds to call on the turn if we think he's got a 7 or 8 -- even if we're ahead, too, one of those draws could come in. If I see the turn, I call the river getting 7:1, esp. given how agg this guy is. It might be wrong, I dunno. But I think if you say "fold the river" you have a tough time defending the turn call. The percentages that he's bluffing + that he'll bluff exactly flop and turn but give up on the river have to be exactly right for this line to be correct I think. Plus, you get no info.

Re: I hate calling to fold the river.....
 

Yeah, you are correct about the river being a call. I just thought you were saying it's always incorrect to call a bet on the turn in spots like this and then fold the river. But you are talking contextually and I agree you are right.

Krishan

Re: I hate calling to fold the river.....
 

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If you're going to call the turn, call the river. No reason to put him on an ace, and if you put him on 7 or an 8, as opposed to a draw, then you really don't have odds to call the turn with your ISD.

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WTF? Calling the turn does not mean you have to call the river. It's true that he probably doesn't have an ace but him betting into an ace on the river makes it much more likely that he has a hand.

Krishan

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WTF WTF? How does the river A make him more likely to bet a hand that beat 66 rather than bet a bluff ?
You dont think he may check 8x,7x some of the time or be more likely to think a paired hand below the Ace will fold after it hits ?
A-high probably calls anyway, so the ace makes it less likely that he is a hand with an ace that is showing down.

Re: I hate calling to fold the river.....
 

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If you're going to call the turn, call the river. No reason to put him on an ace, and if you put him on 7 or an 8, as opposed to a draw, then you really don't have odds to call the turn with your ISD.

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WTF? Calling the turn does not mean you have to call the river. It's true that he probably doesn't have an ace but him betting into an ace on the river makes it much more likely that he has a hand.

Krishan

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WTF WTF? How does the river A make him more likely to bet a hand that beat 66 rather than bet a bluff ?
You dont think he may check 8x,7x some of the time or be more likely to think a paired hand below the Ace will fold after it hits ?
A-high probably calls anyway, so the ace makes it less likely that he is a hand with an ace that is showing down.

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I didn't actually read the hand the first time I made comments. So Grigra's comment are made having read the hand and mine are generalities that don't actually make any sense since they don't apply to the hand in question.

Krishan

Re: I hate calling to fold the river.....
 

For the record, folding this river against a somewhat agressive opponent is insane. I would think it is about even money that you have the best hand.
Folding the turn is bad.
There are two river cards that would make me fold : 9h and Th.
Against a not too agressive opponent (i.e. would not three bet with top pair and would not three bet his not so strong draws), then I would raise the turn for a free showdown because there are many river cards where I would make a not so good call.

Re: I hate calling to fold the river.....
 

When he bets the river its more likely he either has a monster or a bluff. Its a great sign for you that he is betting that card. Easy easy call.

Re: I hate calling to fold the river.....
 

Also folding the turn seems ridiculous to me. You have the best hand here a lot and when you dont you usually have 6 outs.

Re: I hate calling to fold the river.....
 

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I like this. Depending on the player, though, I think that a turn raise might be better.

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Not sure I like a turn raise because

1. He will fire again on the river anyway if he is on a draw and misses.
2. We have to call a 3 bet with our gutshot/set outs.