DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
The advantage the seven players have is that they can (according to the U.S. Gov't and the WPT) advertise their site on television, while the WPT, who works within the laws cannot.

The reason they bring this up, is that these players are trying to claim that the WPT is "unfairly" making deals with casinos to run only WPT events.

It's all just ridiculous, and I've lost respect for most everyone involved in the lawsuit from the players side. Aside from Joe Hachem, who frankly, I'm not really sure realizes what he got himself into.

I have a lot more faith and trust in poker's greatest ambassadors than I do the seven players who, IMO, over value their worth to the poker world.

I'd rather side with people like Mike Sexton, Chip Reese, Barry Greenstein, and the like, before siding with seven players who went about this whole thing in the entirely wrong way.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poke...2572&st=20

This lawsuit is going to be the best thing ever. Watching all of these rich idiots take each other down instead of working together to build up the poker world will be highly entertaining.

The only downside is that it may be us online grinders who end up bearing the brunt of this misguided lawsuit if the lawsuit happens to grab the attention of Congress.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

Anyone have the text of Raymer's comments?

ps. Daniel's going on about it is just as bad as the suit; he's drawing a lot of attention to the whole thing, and his ranting has zero positive effect. It seems Daniel just likes to talk and doesn't think very much about the purpose/effect of what he's saying.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

Who are the seven, specifically?

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

Raymer, Hachem, Lederer, Duke, Gordon, Bloch, and Ferguson.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone have the text of Raymer's comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here are some of Raymer's previous comments:

[ QUOTE ]
I do not see any legal basis by which the WPT can bring any online site into this lawsuit in any manner whatsoever. They will likely ask us during any depositions about the activity of our respective sites that we the Plaintiffs represent, and the answers will be that these sites have nothing to do with the lawsuit. With that being the case, I do not see any way that the judge would rule that the WPT could bring the online sites into the case as either parties or witnesses. You can't drag somebody into an existing lawsuit without some evidence that they are involved. You don't necessarily need a lot of evidence, but you must have something. In this case, there is nothing I know of that would give the WPT the standing to attack the online sites.


[/ QUOTE ]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...rue#Post6821359

It looks like Raymer was dead wrong about that as the WPT mentioned Full Tilt's illegal activities in their response to the 7's lawsuit.

DN has said all along that he doesn't care which side is right or wrong. He mainly feels that this lawsuit will be bad for online poker becaue the legality of online poker will become an issue in this lawsuit (which it has):

[ QUOTE ]
For example, Full Tilt Poker, a website started by Plaintiffs Chris Ferguson and Howard Lederer and with which at least two other Plaintiffs are affiliated, already competes unfairly against WPTE by using the tremendous revenues it obtains from promoting online gambling in the United States and accepting online bets from persons located in the United States – activities declared by the US Department of Justice as illegal under existing law – to subsidize the poker programming it offers television networks. WPTE, on the other hand, complies with the letter and spirit of the law as currently interpreted by the DOJ and employs numerous safeguards to ensure no one in the United States can place a bet on its online poker website, leaving websites like Full Tilt Poker (and its owners Chris Ferguson and Howard Lederer) to reap these illicit profits.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img.worldpokertour.com/media/article/214.pdf

DN feels that the 7 plaintiffs (Raymer, Jesus, Lederer, Annie Duke, etc) are putting their own greed ahead of the good of the game.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

With this lawsuit, these 7 plaintiffs may end up helping to destroy the American online poker world that has made them all rich and famous.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
Negreanu is right, and Raymer and the other 6 dwarfs are wrong. Their lawsuit is about nothing but greed, plain and simple.

They don't give a damn about anybody but themselves. These 7 bozos are going to help destroy the same online poker world that has made them all multimillionaires.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why I didn't put you on ignore a long time ago.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
With this lawsuit, these 7 plaintiffs may end up helping to destroy the American online poker world that has made them all rich and famous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh please, this whole thing has gotten so blown out of proportion its ridiculous. The odds of this having the effect you are suggesting are ridiculously low.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

I'm not positive I'm reading this right, but why can't the WPT advertise on TV? I know I see their commercials all the time, so what's the story here?

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Negreanu is right, and Raymer and the other 6 dwarfs are wrong. Their lawsuit is about nothing but greed, plain and simple.

They don't give a damn about anybody but themselves. These 7 bozos are going to help destroy the same online poker world that has made them all multimillionaires.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why I didn't put you on ignore a long time ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

judging by the way he post-edited the quote you have, I concur.

RB

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
With this lawsuit, these 7 plaintiffs may end up helping to destroy the American online poker world that has made them all rich and famous.

[/ QUOTE ]

you, sir, are brilliant.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

What's up with the Hachem slam? I guess Daniel's saying he is naive. I bet Joe at least went to college.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

i dunno.... raymer explcitly stated he saw no way for online poker to enter into this lawsuit, and now it has. does anyone who supported the lawsuit before still feel that strongly about it?

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
With this lawsuit, these 7 plaintiffs may end up helping to destroy the American online poker world that has made them all rich and famous.

[/ QUOTE ]


"Matt, Matt, Matt. You don't know the history of psychiatry. I do."

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dunno.... raymer explcitly stated he saw no way for online poker to enter into this lawsuit, and now it has.

[/ QUOTE ]
No it hasn't. The defendent pled something about it in its answer. That doesn't mean anything. You can plead anything you want in an answer. There's no penalty for saying stuff that's completely irrelevant or bogus, and most of the content of an answer typically bears little resemblance to the reality of the lawsuit.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

I believe the lawsuit is a good thing and the players are right for doing it. The only thing they are trying to do is protect player's rights.

If you ever play in a WPT event the waiver you have to sign says that the WPT has a right to use your image however they want forever. This means that that they can put your face on any WPT product they currently have, or any product they make in the future.

Lets's say you wake up one day and you are Greg Raymer. You have a million fans and where ever you go women throw their underwear at you. You hire people (at great expense)to come out with a poker video game where you can play heads up against a video game version of yourself.

Two weeks before your video game comes out, you go to the store and on the shelf is a WPT video game that has your picture on the front and says you can play heads up against Greg Raymer. Is that fair to you? Just because you put up your own money to enter a tourney that the WPT happened to be filming?

Also while you are at the store, you see a WPT brand anal lube with your face on it, WPT brand sex toy (with your face on it), a WPT brand flag burning kit (with your face on it), and a WPT brand "How to cheat at poker" book with your face on the cover.

Is that fair?

Right now, the WPT could legally do all of those things because of that release. The players did ask the WPT to change the release, but the WPT told them to buzz off.

These 7 players are using their own money to try and get this changed. They are doing this to protect the rights of all current and future poker players, Daniel Negreanu included. Daniel does not seem to grasp this point.

The largest point that no one seems to be making is that if the WPT would just agree to rewrite the waiver and spell out exactly what the WPT could use the they player's image for (commericals and full season DVDs) then this whole issue would go away.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who are the seven, specifically?

[/ QUOTE ]

Chubby, Aussie, Tilty, Whiney, Brainy, Hairy and Prof.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

They are 9, and they have already left from Mordor.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

"Matt, Matt, Matt. You don't know the history of psychiatry. I do."

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With this lawsuit, these 7 plaintiffs may end up helping to destroy the American online poker world that has made them all rich and famous.

[/ QUOTE ]


"Matt, Matt, Matt. You don't know the history of psychiatry. I do."

[/ QUOTE ]
Burno, you're being glib.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With this lawsuit, these 7 plaintiffs may end up helping to destroy the American online poker world that has made them all rich and famous.

[/ QUOTE ]


"Matt, Matt, Matt. You don't know the history of psychiatry. I do."

[/ QUOTE ]

lmao

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]

Lets's say you wake up one day and you are Greg Raymer. You have a million fans and where ever you go women throw their underwear at you.

while you are at the store, you see a WPT brand anal lube with your face on it, WPT brand sex toy (with your face on it), a WPT brand flag burning kit (with your face on it), and a WPT brand "How to cheat at poker" book with your face on the cover.

Is that fair?


[/ QUOTE ]

I loled, but come on man..the WPT flag burning kit is still likely months if not years away.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

I dont think this was directed at raymer but at all 7 and i do think there is some justification to it. DN had said before that he felt there was no way online poker wouldnt get dragged into this mess and sure enough it gets mentioned several times. With all the trouble brewing in Congress to have online poker come up in this regard probably wont be helping the cause.

Other poker players speak out against Raymer
 

DN and Barry Greenstein aren't the only poker players against Raymer on this issue:

[ QUOTE ]
It's *my* personal opinion, as a lawyer who studied antitrust law in law school, that Raymer's being a pedantic ass (and that the lawsuit has a serious uphill battle). Also, I thought Greg Raymer was smart enough to know that not every one is going to be pleased by this action, no matter that "we are doing this to help them". Did he ever consider that maybe some people don't want or *need* his "help"?

That he's doing this to "help all of us" is a load of tripe, of course. The average player stands to gain nothing from this lawsuit. The antitrust arguments are a stretch and anyway won't really matter much to a guy who satellites into a WPT event off of Party Poker, and the portion of the poker community that will benefit from a change in the WPT release is less than 1 percent. Who's got whose hand in whose ass, Greg? And really, don't expect any pity party that you're using your own money to fund this lawsuit.


[/ QUOTE ]

http://ftrain.blogspot.com/2006/08/l...gs-of-war.html

I find it funny that average poker players like MicroBob are now boycotting the WPT over this lawsuit. This lawsuit isn't going to help you average guys any. You are not famous now and you are never going to be famous if the WPT isn't allowed to put your image on TV. Get a grip on reality and realize that you are being manipulated by Raymer so that he can make more money.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe the lawsuit is a good thing and the players are right for doing it. The only thing they are trying to do is protect player's rights.

If you ever play in a WPT event the waiver you have to sign says that the WPT has a right to use your image however they want forever. This means that that they can put your face on any WPT product they currently have, or any product they make in the future.

Lets's say you wake up one day and you are Greg Raymer. You have a million fans and where ever you go women throw their underwear at you. You hire people (at great expense)to come out with a poker video game where you can play heads up against a video game version of yourself.

Two weeks before your video game comes out, you go to the store and on the shelf is a WPT video game that has your picture on the front and says you can play heads up against Greg Raymer. Is that fair to you? Just because you put up your own money to enter a tourney that the WPT happened to be filming?

Also while you are at the store, you see a WPT brand anal lube with your face on it, WPT brand sex toy (with your face on it), a WPT brand flag burning kit (with your face on it), and a WPT brand "How to cheat at poker" book with your face on the cover.

Is that fair?

Right now, the WPT could legally do all of those things because of that release. The players did ask the WPT to change the release, but the WPT told them to buzz off.

These 7 players are using their own money to try and get this changed. They are doing this to protect the rights of all current and future poker players, Daniel Negreanu included. Daniel does not seem to grasp this point.

The largest point that no one seems to be making is that if the WPT would just agree to rewrite the waiver and spell out exactly what the WPT could use the they player's image for (commericals and full season DVDs) then this whole issue would go away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then dont sign and dont play the WPT events. No one is holding a gun to their head forcing them to.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

On a side note, is Lederer and Ferguson both co-owners of Full Tilt ? Who actually owns it ?

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

The WPT has done just fine without Raymer and company, and I'm sure they'll do just fine without MicroBob. LOL

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

Lederer and Ferguson are co-owners of Full Tilt. I believe there are other investors also. Full Tilt is trying to start their own televised poker series and WPT is alleging that this lawsuit is really more of a competitive tactic by Full Tilt to hinder WPT's business.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
WPT brand sex toy (with your face on it)

[/ QUOTE ]

Is your face on the actual sex toy or just on the box?

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

You can read more about Full Tilt's televised poker events here:

http://www.pokernews.com/news/2006/6...er-tonight.htm

I don't know, I think it will be tough for the players to prove that WPT has a monopoly on big buy-in televised tournaments when Jesus and Howard are sponsoring their own big buy-in televised tourneys through Full Tilt.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
Then dont sign and dont play the WPT events. No one is holding a gun to their head forcing them to.

[/ QUOTE ]

*this is just my rough understanding of the situation*

The WPT has deals with the most of the large casinos that have the customer base to support the high buy in poker tournaments. In these deals the casinos agree to not have a high buy in tourney unless the WPT films it. The players can either sign away their rights, or not play. There are no other high buy in tourneys available regularly besides WPT events. Thus the WPT has a monopoly and that is why they filed an anti-trust suit.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
No it hasn't. The defendent pled something about it in its answer. That doesn't mean anything. You can plead anything you want in an answer. There's no penalty for saying stuff that's completely irrelevant or bogus, and most of the content of an answer typically bears little resemblance to the reality of the lawsuit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch ... I understand the point you are making ... parties do throw into their answers what would be deemed "argument" and not fact -- the WPTs response is a textbook example -- but the answer always "bears resemblance to the reality of the lawsuit." Much of it may be greek to the layperson, but it is the seminal document in the defense's response and one that they are bound by. If they make a mistake they can under certain circumstances move the court to amend it, but make no mistake that it is a very important document and has everything to do with the reality of the lawsuit. I assure you that WPTE paid at least $100,000 for the preparation of that answer.

But, again, I understand the point you are making about the extra stuff they throw in.

NCAces

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are no other high buy in tourneys available regularly besides WPT events.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are no other high buy in tourneys available regularly besides WPT events.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops! I left out the word televised. Oh well.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are no other high buy in tourneys available regularly besides WPT events.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops! I left out the word televised. Oh well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let's see, just this week on TV I watched the Aussie Millions and the WSOP ME.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are no other high buy in tourneys available regularly besides WPT events.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops! I left out the word televised. Oh well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let's see, just this week on TV I watched the Aussie Millions and the WSOP ME.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also that USPC at Trump Plaza.

I would think with the marketing power some of the 7 have they should concentrate on starting their own poker tour.

If their sole desire is to make it better for all poker players. Then why not be the people to make the rules and not worry about following them.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

is it just a coincedence that WSOP lowered their circuit events to 5k?

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
is it just a coincedence that WSOP lowered their circuit events to 5k?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it must be some sort of conspiracy between the WSOP, the WPT, the USPC, the EPT, the FBI, the CIA, the DEA, and Doyle Brunson.

We have a winner .....
 

"It seems Daniel just likes to talk and doesn't think very much about the purpose/effect of what he's saying. "

.... That about sums it up, except that he doesn't seem to think much about the content of his rants either.

Re: DN loses respect for Raymer
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then dont sign and dont play the WPT events. No one is holding a gun to their head forcing them to.

[/ QUOTE ]

*this is just my rough understanding of the situation*

The WPT has deals with the most of the large casinos that have the customer base to support the high buy in poker tournaments. In these deals the casinos agree to not have a high buy in tourney unless the WPT films it. The players can either sign away their rights, or not play. There are no other high buy in tourneys available regularly besides WPT events. Thus the WPT has a monopoly and that is why they filed an anti-trust suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I read in Poker Player that someone wanted to set up a big tournament at one of the big L.A. card clubs, but could not because the card club was locked into "WPT only" tournaments.