If only they were aces...
 

Fairly deep in the 3r, i forget if we are ITM yet, i doubt it - but its pretty close. Button is pretty solid, quite aggressive from late position, not raising EVERY time its folded to him, but a decent amount. Sadly no reads on the SB.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1600 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

CO (t32333)
Button (t26112)
SB (t31197)
Hero (t54838)
UTG (t33310)
UTG+1 (t55130)
MP1 (t32800)
MP2 (t28687)
MP3 (t14254)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
6 folds, Button raises to t4800, SB raises to t31122, Hero??????

Re: If only they were aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fairly deep in the 3r, i forget if we are ITM yet, i doubt it - but its pretty close. Button is pretty solid, quite aggressive from late position, not raising EVERY time its folded to him, but a decent amount. Sadly no reads on the SB.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1600 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

CO (t32333)
Button (t26112)
SB (t31197)
Hero (t54838)
UTG (t33310)
UTG+1 (t55130)
MP1 (t32800)
MP2 (t28687)
MP3 (t14254)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
6 folds, Button raises to t4800, SB raises to t31122, Hero??????

[/ QUOTE ]

fold. don't mind coming in behind a raiser, but now he has been re-raised. This usually (not always) signifies a monster.

edit: On second thought, i still fold, but it's a little closer than i first thought, he does have a shortish stack and could just be trying to isolate or to resteal with a marginal hand. His M is about 10.

Re: If only they were aces...
 

Wow, this is really rough, I have no idea what to do here. I think my gut says call as it looks like SB is trying to put a move on button, but its only Tens...

I think I push JJ-AA/AK here. Tens feel just on the wrong side to push here, but I'm really not sure.

Re: If only they were aces...
 

Wow, this sucks. Sb's range is pretty huge, and a push is likely in order, but I fold. I just HATE calling with tens.

Pushing with tens, fine. Calling just makes me sick.

Edit: You have no reads on sb? If this is because he is new to the table, this is an easy fold for me. If he's new, he has no indication of buttons aggro ways, and this tightens up his range considerably.

Re: If only they were aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold. don't mind coming in behind a raiser, but now he has been re-raised. This usually (not always) signifies a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

A read makes this one much easier, but this isn't utg raising, MP reraising - its a button raise (which probably could be any two, its at least 70% of his hands) and the sb who i'd imagine realises this shoving.

Thing is, if im the SB, TT is way ahead of my range and its a pretty easy call (even for the times the button/sb pickup a real hand). However - i don't know if the sb is capable of pushing with air... Damn i should play less tournaments and get better reads [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: If only they were aces...
 

I think it's close here due to the fact that the button has been fairly aggressive and the SB could potentially have a wide range here thinking exactly that. Vs. tricky opponents I might say to push it in here hoping to catch the SB on a resteal but with no read on the SB you could probably lean towards a fold.

Re: If only they were aces...
 

Assuming a fairly normal button and sb I'm pretty damn sure this is an easy call. Button's range is obviously huge, SB's range should be fairly wide. Also, AA/KK are probably a little less likely since so many would just call or reraise smaller.

Steve

Re: If only they were aces...
 

Fold, kiss your 1600 happily goodbye. Difficult to put the SB on a hand here with the info you've got, maybe 2 overcards (JK, JQ?)or Ax. The BB isn't really under pressure with 800 committed. The facts here - button raises 3xBB, BB goes all-in. Initial raise might be a steal attempt but could be a legit hand and with the all-in from the BB i suspect 1 of them has a strong hand which, against potentially 2 hands, puts you in bad shape. Your pot odds are terrible so wait for a better opportunity to gamble.

Re: If only they were aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have no reads on sb? If this is because he is new to the table, this is an easy fold for me. If he's new, he has no indication of buttons aggro ways, and this tightens up his range considerably.

[/ QUOTE ]

No if he paid attention he realises how often the button has raised. No reads because hes done nothing unusual, and im playing too many other tournaments.

Re: If only they were aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold, kiss your 1600 happily goodbye. Difficult to put the SB on a hand here with the info you've got, maybe 2 overcards (JK, JQ?)or Ax. The BB isn't really under pressure with 800 committed. The facts here - button raises 3xBB, BB goes all-in. Initial raise might be a steal attempt but could be a legit hand and with the all-in from the BB i suspect 1 of them has a strong hand which, against potentially 2 hands, puts you in bad shape. Your pot odds are terrible so wait for a better opportunity to gamble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh come one, lets have some real discussion here. Thats just so weak minded its painful to read. You really assume a monster from a button raise and SB shove? I hope your sitting in the BB everytime i push 78h vs an aggro button.

If we ignore the button for now, as i think if we push, he folds most of the time anyway - we need to put sb on a pretty tight range to make this a fold. AT+, 88+, KQ is basically a coinflip, and with an overlay thats good yes?

Re: If only they were aces...
 

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh come one, lets have some real discussion here. Thats just so weak minded its painful to read. You really assume a monster from a button raise and SB shove? I hope your sitting in the BB everytime i push 78h vs an aggro button.

If we ignore the button for now, as i think if we push, he folds most of the time anyway - we need to put sb on a pretty tight range to make this a fold. AT+, 88+, KQ is basically a coinflip, and with an overlay thats good yes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Weak? Thats one valid opinion. I am not assuming a monster - I'm obviously more conservative than u here. Put simply -I don't like chasing with 10's. If I open I push, facing one raiser I push. 2 raises to me generally spells trouble hence the fold.

I look forward to meeting you on the tables and whpping your ass - where do you play?

Re: If only they were aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh come one, lets have some real discussion here. Thats just so weak minded its painful to read. You really assume a monster from a button raise and SB shove? I hope your sitting in the BB everytime i push 78h vs an aggro button.

If we ignore the button for now, as i think if we push, he folds most of the time anyway - we need to put sb on a pretty tight range to make this a fold. AT+, 88+, KQ is basically a coinflip, and with an overlay thats good yes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Weak? Thats one valid opinion. I am not assuming a monster - I'm obviously more conservative than u here. Put simply -I don't like chasing with 10's. If I open I push, facing one raiser I push. 2 raises to me generally spells trouble hence the fold.

I look forward to meeting you on the tables and whpping your ass - where do you play?

[/ QUOTE ]

uh oh. this is starting to get good.

do i hear challenge?

Re: If only they were aces...
 

If i push, i'm assuming the button folds. That way its HU, and depends on what range we give the SB if thats a good play. In the actual hand i folded, thinking the same as you actually - i figured its probably a coinflip with some overlay, so folded to protect the chipstack. After running TT vs some possible SB ranges, i think its a repush here.

I play on pokerstars - if you want, feel free to deposit some money, and we'll put a sidebet on how much we make playing mtts over feb?

Re: If only they were aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I play on pokerstars - if you want, feel free to deposit some money, and we'll put a sidebet on how much we make playing mtts over feb?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hustler hard at work...

Re: If only they were aces...
 

Until last night i had a negative roi for this month - i think the smart money is on him [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: If only they were aces...
 

I'll take side action on TwistedEcho here. Anyone want to give action in favor of gee?


[crickets chirping]

Anyone?

[tumbleweeds go by....]

Anyone?

Re: If only they were aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
If i push, i'm assuming the button folds. That way its HU, and depends on what range we give the SB if thats a good play. In the actual hand i folded, thinking the same as you actually - i figured its probably a coinflip with some overlay, so folded to protect the chipstack. After running TT vs some possible SB ranges, i think its a repush here.

I play on pokerstars - if you want, feel free to deposit some money, and we'll put a sidebet on how much we make playing mtts over feb?

[/ QUOTE ]

just an FYI, but i ran pokerstove on the ranges you mentioned, BUT i left the button in also as a random hand (his range may be better than random or not). So against the range for SB you listed and a random hand, the TT is 41%.

Re: If only they were aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
If i push, i'm assuming the button folds. That way its HU, and depends on what range we give the SB if thats a good play. In the actual hand i folded, thinking the same as you actually - i figured its probably a coinflip with some overlay, so folded to protect the chipstack. After running TT vs some possible SB ranges, i think its a repush here.

I play on pokerstars - if you want, feel free to deposit some money, and we'll put a sidebet on how much we make playing mtts over feb?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL - so you actually agreed with my analysis! Fair play on admitting it. What limits and size of tourney do you play? I float about in the big tourneys up to $50 and sit n go's up to $200 mainly on party but I've just recentlty started playing on stars, so if our buy-ins are similar I might be tempted to have a little side bet?? What amount you thinkin?

Re: If only they were aces...
 

He folds the random hand though, its not still there. What range do we give him for calling after it goes push/repush, probably QQ+, AK? Thats very rarely, so i just assumed he folded to make the calculation easier,thats fine right?

If we give him A8+, KQ, 22+ im 60%, if we give him AT+, KQ+, 88 its a coinflip. I think its possible his range could be even greater than that, but for a random sb, im not too sure how wide i would make it.

Re: If only they were aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
LOL - so you actually agreed with my analysis! Fair play on admitting it. What limits and size of tourney do you play? I float about in the big tourneys up to $50 and sit n go's up to $200 mainly on party but I've just recentlty started playing on stars, so if our buy-ins are similar I might be tempted to have a little side bet?? What amount you thinkin?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you had posted the reasons behind folding the first time, i wouldn't have commented about it, but just because it goes raise, reraise is no reason to fold - was hoping to get more discussion than that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I play pretty similar stakes, sidebet can be discussed, i was thinking around $1000 or so? Otherwise its not worth it and less interesting.

Re: If only they were aces...
 

You're tied for the big stack at the table, you have an M of 22 or so, and you have plenty of opportunity to bully some in the next ring or two. TT is not a superstrong hand and its likely that you're getting into a coinflip at best. Sure SB could be flat making a play on the button, but if hes not your stack is busted down to and M of 10. Why take this risk here?

I agree that you are likely ahead, but if not you find out the hard way.

Re: If only they were aces...
 

i push here quickly

Re: If only they were aces...
 

$1000 - LMAO, I only play 2-3 sessions a week as I'm in the UK and work for a living so can only play serious at weekends due to time differences (and if the good lady of the house doesn't want to go cushion shopping or something [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]!).

Tried to keep original post short as didn't want to write an epic. I presumed you'd know the reasonong behind it - that is, chasing 10's with 2 big raises before.

Re: If only they were aces...
 

This is a really tough situation, as its difficult to put the sb on a range here. Without any reads (and without the knowledge of whether or not sb is capable of a resteal), its really pretty difficult to put sb on a range here.

I think its probably safe to say that bb folds here the vast majority of the time if you call, and if thats the case I think I make the crying call hoping that sb is pushing with A-x or you're at least in a coinflip situation with the pot overlay.

The only problem here is that sb could easily make the same move with JJ-AA.

I could easily be wrong here, help me out if I am.

Re: If only they were aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If i push, i'm assuming the button folds. That way its HU, and depends on what range we give the SB if thats a good play. In the actual hand i folded, thinking the same as you actually - i figured its probably a coinflip with some overlay, so folded to protect the chipstack. After running TT vs some possible SB ranges, i think its a repush here.

I play on pokerstars - if you want, feel free to deposit some money, and we'll put a sidebet on how much we make playing mtts over feb?

[/ QUOTE ]

just an FYI, but i ran pokerstove on the ranges you mentioned, BUT i left the button in also as a random hand (his range may be better than random or not). So against the range for SB you listed and a random hand, the TT is 41%.

[/ QUOTE ]

41% getting better than 2:1 on your money = easy push.

Gee, show me some ranges of hands where a fold is correct. Or at least show me some ranges where folding is only a slight error and give me a good reason why I should pass up this edge. (And no, "he might have me dominated" is not a good reason to pass up an edge.)

Steve

Re: If only they were aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
He folds the random hand though, its not still there. What range do we give him for calling after it goes push/repush, probably QQ+, AK? Thats very rarely, so i just assumed he folded to make the calculation easier,thats fine right?

If we give him A8+, KQ, 22+ im 60%, if we give him AT+, KQ+, 88 its a coinflip. I think its possible his range could be even greater than that, but for a random sb, im not too sure how wide i would make it.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is true, that the random hand most likely folds. BUT, how do we know the random hand isn't the SB who just pushed on a resteal, and the range you gave for SB earlier is actually buttons range now with the original raise. Just food for thought. We would still be 41%.

I tend to try to avoid circumstances where someone is screaming I have a monster and my gut is saying "you lying bastich" and i instapush and regret it as i start up the next tourny.

Re: If only they were aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]


this is true, that the random hand most likely folds. BUT, how do we know the random hand isn't the SB who just pushed on a resteal, and the range you gave for SB earlier is actually buttons range now with the original raise. Just food for thought. We would still be 41%.

[/ QUOTE ]

You keep saying, we would be 41% like it's a bad thing. If we're 41% to win, getting better than 2:1 odds, that is very good.

Steve

Re: If only they were aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


this is true, that the random hand most likely folds. BUT, how do we know the random hand isn't the SB who just pushed on a resteal, and the range you gave for SB earlier is actually buttons range now with the original raise. Just food for thought. We would still be 41%.

[/ QUOTE ]

You keep saying, we would be 41% like it's a bad thing. If we're 41% to win, getting better than 2:1 odds, that is very good.

Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

no this was just an FYI, this would give us the proper odds to call. i was simply pointing out the odds.

Re: If only they were aces...
 

Fair enough. I must have misinterpreted the tone of your posts.

Steve

Re: If only they were aces...
 

Hand 1: 55.7446 % 54.78% 00.96% { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 2: 44.2554 % 43.30% 00.96% { TT }

I think is range is wider than this, but if this is his range, it is a call.

Re: If only they were aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gee, show me some ranges of hands where a fold is correct. Or at least show me some ranges where folding is only a slight error and give me a good reason why I should pass up this edge. (And no, "he might have me dominated" is not a good reason to pass up an edge.)

Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, last post on this subject, and remember this is my opinion on this particular situation:

Firstly i play a lot of live poker and my mind isn't as agile as it could be with the maths involved preflop - I gave up on my statistical analysis when I discovered my crystal ball was faulty!

I know here 10's against 2 hands aint all that, hence my approach relys on me reading situations rather than hard figures. I am not disputing the plays being suggested and the figures being quoted - but as I said earlier, chasing 2 raises with 10's when there's a danger of denting my chip stack big time is a no-go for me full stop. Obviously there are times to make a play depending on chipstack and amount of hands - but here when I'm in good shape, no. Generally with 2 raises before me I don't care what they are on, I'll sit back and let them play. If I'm in the closing stages of a tournament I'm looking to open or push against 1 opponent with 10's and if I have people behind so be it but I've made my move on my terms not someone elses which is important to me. I look at the situation and if the guy is making a steal? So what! We all do it and think we're the nuts when we get away with it. My time will come and come soon to make a steal or 2. Chasing is one sure way to bust out. The situation stinks hence I'm out. Yeah - I'm as tight as a rats ass at times! So what?! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: If only they were aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold, kiss your 1600 happily goodbye. Difficult to put the SB on a hand here with the info you've got, maybe 2 overcards (JK, JQ?)or Ax. The BB isn't really under pressure with 800 committed. The facts here - button raises 3xBB, BB goes all-in. Initial raise might be a steal attempt but could be a legit hand and with the all-in from the BB i suspect 1 of them has a strong hand which, against potentially 2 hands, puts you in bad shape. Your pot odds are terrible so wait for a better opportunity to gamble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh come one, lets have some real discussion here. Thats just so weak minded its painful to read. You really assume a monster from a button raise and SB shove? I hope your sitting in the BB everytime i push 78h vs an aggro button.

If we ignore the button for now, as i think if we push, he folds most of the time anyway - we need to put sb on a pretty tight range to make this a fold. AT+, 88+, KQ is basically a coinflip, and with an overlay thats good yes?

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't run the stove numbers, but assuming that the above range is 50/50, then I instacall, as I think SB's range is even wider, maybe AKs-A8s, AK-AT, KQs, KQ-KJ, AA-66?

What would you push in the SBs shoes?

Re: If only they were aces...
 

If im the sb? I push all kinds of crap, possibly even any two if i think button is that active. My range is huge if i'm the sb, but generally i don't assume that random players have quite that wide a range. Even so, as CSC's post indicates, he needs a stupidly tight range to make this a fold.

Sadly my on the spot maths for ranges isn't so great, and i decided to fold to protect my stack. If i was in this spot again, i will repush pretty quickly.

Not that it matters, the SB has AJo and the button called with KQc.

Re: If only they were aces...
 

I likely would have folded too, and then been mad when I really looked at the math of the range.

Agree that results aren't relevant, but knowing AJo is in the range indicates it's not too narrow. I doubt button comes along if you push, but who knows, some people love the pretty suited paint and aren't turning loose ever.