1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

History: Villain is aejones. We've played a bit, but really not an extensive sample. When we first played, i marked him as a maniac, but i decided that hes probably good and very LAG, tho he makes some very weird moves (minraising PF on occasion.) I'm not sure if i stand out to him at all, but he should probably remember this hand.

In this session, ive been 3betting him a decent amount. Mostly i was picking up hands and none of them got shown down, so he may think im just trying to abuse him.

We're deep and he knows that, so i think he can call PF with pretty big range.

On to the hand:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($390)
BB ($442.76)
UTG ($241.64)
Button ($427.53)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $1. BB posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $7</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $24</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $17.

Flop: ($50) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $41</font>, Button calls $41.

Turn: ($132) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero does what? What range am i against right now?

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

I'm betting about $120 on the turn and insta-calling an all-in.

Maybe he's got [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]s, maybe not. Ax X[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is a definite raising possibility on that turn. Two pair or a set could be getting frisky.

If he moves in over such a turn bet, you're getting $577:$205 to call, which is slightly EV- if he's got exactly a flush. AA is the only hand you're dead to. Everything else you have a massive equity edge.

I'm not worrying at all about getting the money in here if he pushes over your bet.

- C -

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

110.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

I don't know, If you bet 120 and he shoves, I think most of the time you are going to see diamonds, because he's gotta believe he has little FE from that strong of a bet, at the very least you have AxKd. I might try a weaker bet hoping to induce.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

and fwiw, 30/18 isnt lag. its just bad.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
and fwiw, 30/18 isnt lag. its just bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

having a winning month and them come back and talk [censored].

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
and fwiw, 30/18 isnt lag. its just bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, i know someone who has very similar numbers and is/was destroying 10/20NL. But im not saying this has anything to do with the villain, just pointing it out.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

30/18 at 10/20 and 1/2 are diff things.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

he has a flush never here. He's on AA/AK/KdKx/QdQx/88.

If he has kings or queens with diamond, he checks behind. Bet 2/3 pot and call all in, or get it in on non diamond river.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
and fwiw, 30/18 isnt lag. its just bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL- I'm sorry I'd rather improve my game and have more fun than playing 15/10 or something ridiculous for a slightly better WR.

In my defense, I promise you I've never min raised preflop intentionally- I was likely a glitch with multi-tabling or more likely I was having trouble with my new keypad- I enter an amount to reraise and it doesn't go in and I end up reraising minimum.

I will have no problem analyzing the hand from my point of view, giving my reads, etc. if you would like after a few more responses.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
and fwiw, 30/18 isnt lag. its just bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

aejones is very good

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

I don't think we can rule out flush but we obviously can't fold and I think ae is checking behind with QQ with Qd or KK with Kd so I like a weakbet that prices out but might induce a bluff from QQ no diamond or KK no diamond.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

I usually raise a bit more preflop in an effort to reduce the hands that he will take a flyer with as If I am in villain's position with that deep of stacks, I am literally calling any two. Flop, I will usually bet a little bit more to define his hand better. If you pot it, I believe that it is unprofitable for him to call without a very strong draw (don't quote me on this though.) The turn is a very difficult decision, because 9T, KQ [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or really anything that this board smacked is a possibility given the puny 3 bet pf. If you have been three betting him a ton (which you said that you have) there may be a good chance that he is floating you here. As such, I will probably check call the turn and bet a non river diamond (besides the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img])

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] was double gutted on the flop, but his flop play probably rules that out

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm betting about $120 on the turn and insta-calling an all-in.

Maybe he's got [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]s, maybe not. Ax X[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is a definite raising possibility on that turn. Two pair or a set could be getting frisky.

If he moves in over such a turn bet, you're getting $577:$205 to call, which is slightly EV- if he's got exactly a flush. AA is the only hand you're dead to. Everything else you have a massive equity edge.

I'm not worrying at all about getting the money in here if he pushes over your bet.

- C -

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate this line in that allows Villain to play perfectly.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

Ok, before i move on, i want to make sure im understanding this right.

If i bet ~110, what hands am i getting action from that i beat? Idk if he can play AK like this. Im sure even KdK and QdQ arent going to get involved.

A small bet like ~50 designed to get a bluff raise? I like this play better than the near pot sized bet, but im still not convinced.

How about checking? If i check, what does he bet? If he floated (maybe he put me on KK/QQ and thinks i'll make the laydown) he'll take a stab at it on the turn. If he has KdK or QdQ he's likely checking behind. If he has AxKd, does he bet that? Should he bet that type of hand, or is that a situation where you REALLY dont want to be checkraised?

ae- after i post the turn, i would definitely appreciate your thoughts on the hand.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

Why bet $110 or $120? I would bet like $80 or $90 on the turn. It's a big enough bet that if villain is still drawing to a straight or flush, he's making a mistake by calling. But yet it still leaves the hero with $250 or so in front of him. If villain pushes, it's a tough call. Very scary board. But hero would be getting almost 2 to 1 on his money and probably has to call and hope to fill up.

I put villain on a decent Ace or some kind of straight draw. If he's got a decent Ace, I think betting $110 or $120 is going to scare him away and the decent Ace is the guy you want to play against. Betting $80 or $90 is somewhat ambiguous. If he's hit the straight or flush, he's either pushing or calling your turn bet. If he calls the turn bet, then I think I check-call a blank on the river and hope that he's missed a draw and is bluffing at it. If the board gets scarier on the river, I probably check-fold. Sucks to be out of position, which is why I probably would not have reraised preflop, but rather would have just called the original raise.

I think the best action on the turn is to bet about $80 and see what happens.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

I think leading for close to the pot is a mistake. I'd bet 1/2 to 2/3ds pot here. I want to make some money from hands I beat since I'm likely going broke on the turn if villain pushes. Villain either has AQ, AK (likely with a diamond.) AA, or 88. KK with a diamond is a possibility, but unlikely

I reraise a lot more PF too.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think leading for close to the pot is a mistake. I'd bet 1/2 to 2/3ds pot here. I want to make some money from hands I beat since I'm likely going broke on the turn if villain pushes. Villain either has AQ, AK (likely with a diamond.) AA, or 88. KK with a diamond is a possibility, but unlikely

I reraise a lot more PF too.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reraise PF is pot sized (my standard). How much more should i be making it? Is the fact that we're so deep the reason that im raising bigger or is a bigger raise just standard?

Also, im now convinced that betting about ~1/2 pot on the turn is probably the best way to go.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

Ok, so everyone thinks a turn bet of some sort is best. Good. Obviously i checked! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Turn action: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (Pot: $132)

I check, aejones bets $90. I ??

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

My thoughts on the hand:

My read on Pasterbator is that he is a TAG, pushing LAG at times. I think of the regular TAGs on 1-2 PP, he is probably in the upper echelon. I have him at 21/18 over ~300 hands, and I do know that he likes to 3-bet preflop perhaps more than average. I realize he is probably 3-betting me light on occasion, but it really doesn't effect my play because I'm running at something like 30/20, so he is often correct to 3-bet me light. I have never seen him get out of line though or show down anything ridiculous, so I always assume he's got a pretty strong holding, especially OOP.

The size of his reraise to 24 is fine. It's standard, and I don't like changing it because we're deep. What are you going to make it 40? Blowing me off of my raising hand from the button (..uh, a little bit of a wide range) seems like a mistake unless you are afraid to play postflop. There are other reasons I don't like raising it big, but I'd rather not elaborate. As said previously, I will call the raise to 25 with any two that I would raise to 7 with from the button when we are this deep.

Your options of lines in this hand suck. They are absolutely terrible. I went over every option you had with a friend, and we agreed that nothing was particularly pleasing. That said, once more is said and results are revealed, I will say why I played the hand the way I did, and the range I can have and what he should put me on.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

disclaimer: I have talked at great lengths with pasterbator about this hand on aim, I do know the river card, and the results. That said, I did not know them when we had a pretty deep discussion about it. First and foremost, this is a very difficult hand, and to deduce how to properly approach it, we really need to think higher. Namely, think about what you (aejones) puts him on. Preflop, as has been noted, we can deduce that you are more likely to put him on a bigger hand (even though this is obviously not set in stone quite yet.) Nothing has changed on the flop, as his bet is a standard continuation bet that he would make with either 23o or AA. This hand develops so much more deeply on the turn. When p check calls the turn, you have to know that he is very strong given the board, the size of the pot, and the betting sequence. Note that due to the check call, he more than likely is vulnerable, and your most likely read on him is that he is on either AA or JJ. In my prior post in this thread, I had said that I liked a check call on the turn with a blocker on the river. I have changed my mind now that I knew that if I were to check call the turn, the pot would be ~320 and p's stack would be ~240. The river (if the hand would have played out according to the check call turn line like I had suggested) is a very very interesting decision, and it is one that seperates the men from the boys imo. I am not going to spoil the fun for all of the readers, but I have inside info that tells me that the river bricked off. Given this card, and what you likely know that we have, I like checking and folding, because you more than likely know that we have a set, and more than likely know that we can't fold it. As such, you won't be betting anything that we can beat.

Now, I do have a few qualms with some of the things said in your response, but I will post those once the results are posted as if p would have raised more pf, you would have played the hand differently, and it would have made a VERY difficult hand play substantially easier.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

Preflop reraise is perfectly fine....

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop reraise is perfectly fine....

[/ QUOTE ]

I am curious why you say this? I am by no means an expert at playing this deep but it makes sense to me that since you are defining your hand to your opponent by reraising, giving him the implied odds to stack you is a mistake.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

From Pasterbator's point of view, I don't like checking and folding at all. I don't see where you can really argue for a fold, unless you are a true nit like Woolygimp.

I'll explain upon request, but his decisions in this hand are very bad, and all roads lead to plays that he can't feel comfortable with.

The reason the preflop raise is fine is that it is standard. If he started reraising to 24 with mediocre hands, and reraising to 50 with strong hands, it would be a blatant leak. He wants his hand to be deceptive as possible, and he knows that because of the frequency he has been 3-betting me I can put him on a large range of hands than AK and TT+. Also, it allows me to play closer to correctly if I have kings or aces.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]


I'll explain upon request, but his decisions in this hand are very bad, and all roads lead to plays that he can't feel comfortable with.

The reason the preflop raise is fine is that it is standard. If he started reraising to 24 with mediocre hands, and reraising to 50 with strong hands, it would be a blatant leak. He wants his hand to be deceptive as possible, and he knows that because of the frequency he has been 3-betting me I can put him on a large range of hands than AK and TT+. Also, it allows me to play closer to correctly if I have kings or aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if you mean that my decisions were bad, or my situations were bad. If my decisions were bad, i'd like you to explain your thoughts. If you mean the situations sucked, i completely agree. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I would like to hear your thoughts on the hand, from your POV if you would. I'm very interested.

FWIW, i still think wouldnt want to reraise much more than i did PF. If anyone else wants to chime in on that, i'd be interested.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
From Pasterbator's point of view, I don't like checking and folding at all. I don't see where you can really argue for a fold, unless you are a true nit like Woolygimp.

I'll explain upon request, but his decisions in this hand are very bad, and all roads lead to plays that he can't feel comfortable with.

The reason the preflop raise is fine is that it is standard. If he started reraising to 24 with mediocre hands, and reraising to 50 with strong hands, it would be a blatant leak. He wants his hand to be deceptive as possible, and he knows that because of the frequency he has been 3-betting me I can put him on a large range of hands than AK and TT+. Also, it allows me to play closer to correctly if I have kings or aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am by no means a nit, and I feel that my post above should more than addequately explain why I like a check fold on the river (and for what it's worth, I was right [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ) Also, as per the preflop reraise, if he can't get away from a set when you turn a flush, then he needs to play in a manner that makes his decisions on later streets easier. Reraising bigger is one of those. Raising bigger preflop (which is my standard regardless of what I repop when stacks are deep) if a leak at all is a small leak. Stacking off 2 buyins with a set against a flush is a significant leak. Now, out of curiousity, how would you play this one from pasterbator's point of view?

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

Hi PB,

I understand (or agree with) little of what I've read here, except from aejones, but maybe that's why I sometimes struggle at 3/6 and below.

Somebody said 30/18 is unequivocally bad at these stakes; I don't get it.

Somebody said aejones can never have a flush here, presumably because of the pre-flop action. What Lag isn't calling 18 more in position against a tight player who's played back at him a lot, when they're both 200BBs deep? I call with any 2 here (and I mean ANY 2). I'm not saying aejones has a flush, but he certainly could have one. Calling the 18 in position with a wide range doesn't even seem loose to me; that's just good poker.

My thoughts on the hand are, the turn card sucks, so you need to think about how you expect aejones to play a big hand, and a bluff/semi-bluff against you, in a key pot. Then, bet, and read his response.

Also, maybe it's minor, but I would bet full pot on the flop here, in keeping with the notion that I may be blowing him off his hand with AK/AQ-type holdings; I think it will encourage a lot of LAGs to get tricky.

Finally, I think you need to be at least 400bbs deep before you use 3 consecutive e's in your subject line. All caps is just egregious. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi PB,

I understand (or agree with) little of what I've read here, except from aejones, but maybe that's why I sometimes struggle at 3/6 and below.

Somebody said 30/18 is unequivocally bad at these stakes; I don't get it.

Somebody said aejones can never have a flush here, presumably because of the pre-flop action. What Lag isn't calling 18 more in position against a tight player who's played back at him a lot, when they're both 200BBs deep? I call with any 2 here (and I mean ANY 2). I'm not saying aejones has a flush, but he certainly could have one. Calling the 18 in position with a wide range doesn't even seem loose to me; that's just good poker.

My thoughts on the hand are, the turn card sucks, so you need to think about how you expect aejones to play a big hand, and a bluff/semi-bluff against you, in a key pot. Then, bet, and read his response.

Also, maybe it's minor, but I would bet full pot on the flop here, in keeping with the notion that I may be blowing him off his hand with AK/AQ-type holdings; I think it will encourage a lot of LAGs to get tricky.

Finally, I think you need to be at least 400bbs deep before you use 3 consecutive e's in your subject line. All caps is just egregious. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Thank you for your response. From this point on, i will never use the 3rd E in my title.

I see where you're coming from, and thats almost exactly how i felt during the hand. I thought that he was calling PF there with pretty much any 2 that he raised with, mostly because he's on the button. Now, should i be raising more PF to combat that? I didnt think so, but maybe im off base with this.

From your post, i gather that my turn check isnt just bad, but awful because it puts me in an awkward spot for the rest of the hand. If i lead the turn, i get a lot more information than if i check. If i do check, hes betting both a bluff and a flush, but likely checking behind with a draw. Should he be betting AxKd or AxQd on this turn, or is it an easy check.

I'm trying to look at this hand from both sides, hence all the questions [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop reraise is perfectly fine....

[/ QUOTE ]

I am curious why you say this? I am by no means an expert at playing this deep but it makes sense to me that since you are defining your hand to your opponent by reraising, giving him the implied odds to stack you is a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume that OPs reraising range is sufficently wide that he's not playing w/ his cards up PF. Just because they're 200bb deep doesn't mean that aejones can call profitably w/ any too (LOL if he thinks he can).

Also, why do you guys think that 200bb in a reraised pot is deep?

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

Alright here we go.

I explained preflop already. I held small suited connectors, diamonds, and I made a turn flush. Here's what I was thinking:

Preflop, I call with any two, if the reraise is larger, I don't like it. The reason I don't like it is simple: I feel like it gives me too much information on the hand, and allows me to play perfectly if I have aces or kings. Now, if you're advocating raising to like 30 instead of 25, that's fine. But to 40+? Seems ridiculous. Betting 40 to win 7? I don't like it, but maybe that play is just preference.

So now on to the flop. I flopped a flush draw. He bet 41 dollars into like 54 dollar pot. With the texture of this flop, A J 8, there are obviously many hands he can have (I'm just differentiating this flop from 8 4 3) that I should be able to put him on based on postflop action. When he leads for the size of the pot, I basically tell myself this: He can have a set here, he can have top two here, he can have AK here, or he can have kings or queens, I think his c-bet is too standard to rule out kings or queens. Therefore, a flop flat call is my best choice here. That way, I can see it for relatively cheap (41 dollars with 350+ behind). I don't ever raise the flop to get out KK and QQ here because he will tell me if he has that on the turn (seems like suicide to fire KK or QQ here on the turn this deep with an ace out here) and because I don't think he's ever folding AK, AAA, JJJ, 888 or AJ on this flop. That's why I called the flop.

I make a flush on the turn, I basically rule him out of having a flush here since the A of diamonds is out there. Does he ever have KQd here? Less than 2% in my hand range analysis. Now when he checks to me on the turn, I had two choices. If I bet, I feel like I put a set or two pair to a nearly impossible decision, and given my image, he's probably shoving with them (or calling- I guess).

The situation you were in (and the decisions you were faced with, not made) sucks. If you c/r the turn, I play perfectly. I call with a straight (QT) and a flush. I fold with a smaller set (always) and two pair (always). So you are basically putting 200+ in the pot as a semi-bluff. If you c/c the turn, that sucks too. If you c/c and the board pairs, I would fold to your open push (which would be pot sized). If you check the river after pairing, I MIGHT bet to get value from AK, but checking the river after pairing would require a sick read and lose some value vs most players. That is why both your turn and river situations are nasty.

I have given this hand a decent amount of thought, and I really don't think it to be that interesting. It had some questionable points, but it really just feels to me like you got stuck with a monster second best hand in a big pot vs a LAG (thanks to everyone with the compliments). Bummer man, I hope this analysis was good, it is exactly what I was thinking at the point of the hand.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

aejones,
Do you push if he bets the turn for 100-130?

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

Yes, obv.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

Hi PB,

[ QUOTE ]
I thought that he was calling PF there with pretty much any 2 that he raised with, mostly because he's on the button. Now, should i be raising more PF to combat that?

[/ QUOTE ]

You could write a whole book on how to play JJ in this type of spot, but here are some quick thoughts:

You don't need to reraise more, though I usually do. But, I'm guessing my reraising range is wider than yours (since my stats look more like aejones's). If your range is now narrowed down to a pretty good hand (rarely/never air), then I think 25-30 is good.

What you should be doing with JJ here, generally, is reraising to try to hit a set and stack him in a huge pot, or calling and trying to win a medium-sized pot with a little early deception. Reraising and then trying to play as though you were the guy who opened with AQ and hit a Q is a bad plan--does that analogy make sense? He's in position, the pot's getting bloated, you have a vulnerable one pair, and your hand is a lot more defined than his--not conducive to you liking the outcome. So, if your plan was to set and possibly win a huge one, kudos. If you were taking that in-between path I outlined above, then I don't like it.

[ QUOTE ]
From your post, i gather that my turn check isnt just bad, but awful because it puts me in an awkward spot for the rest of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. It's the board texture more than the difference in information that makes me think you should bet. I think with the 3rd heart out there, you need to keep him from being able to check behind and kill your chances of winning a big pot while simultaneously giving him a free card. If you bet into a LAG on a card that is obviously scary to you, he will often try to take advantage of that with a huge semi-bluff raise. If this is the kind of guy to make this move, then you want to encourage it, especially since you're probably going to have to get all your chips in the middle eventually if another heart doesn't fall. Inducing a big bluff will put some good results in the field of possible ones where a big pot is played. Against an unpredictable opponent, that's about the best you can do with a hand this big, IMO, which is why I love that style.

I would've definitely lost all my chips on the turn here, given the info provided. I would've bet 100 and called everything back. Worst-case scenario (discounting AA) is I have 10 outs. More common scenario is he has 7 or less (he says he would always fold a smaller set, here, but most players can't).

Lastly, I think aejones's point about not trying to force out KK/QQ on the flop, because that opportunity will still be there on the turn, is EXCELLENT. That's showing some nerve and some brains. Note that many LAGs are not disciplined enough to keep from pushing over a pot-bet on the flop with a flush draw, especially if there's some indication you may be picking on them. Hence, my recommendation to bet full-pot on the flop.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

[/ QUOTE ]
Note that many LAGs are not disciplined enough to keep from pushing over a pot-bet on the flop with a flush draw, especially if there's some indication you may be picking on them. Hence, my recommendation to bet full-pot on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts exactly. At first, I struggled with the idea of not raising the flop. But upon further review, I noted that I don't have any FE vs made hands (except maybe AK, but probably not with my image) and any hand I do have FE vs on the flop I can easily take him off of on the turn, thereby getting myself a chance to see the flush for "cheap." That said, I think the point of a full pot sized bet is a valiant one.

Please note that this post doesn't further analysis much, I'm just repeating what cero z and I have been saying in a more simple way.

Also, thanks for the compliments.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

How do you guys all know each others party SNs? I mean, I can guess that AEJones has a 9 letter all undercase name by his stats (I only have one good 30/18ish in my database), but how do you know everyone else beforehand?

I apologize if I'm out of line, I just started 6max (full ring convert).

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

I've played with Aejones a fair bit, and he is definitely a good LAG. One of the better 200nl regulars for sure (I'm NineHighFTW on PP fyi). I disagree with those who say that calling this three bet with any two is +EV. Against somebody who is reraising fairly light, you don't have a lot of implied odds at all. I would call with a wide range such as suited connectors and PP's, but I think any two such as a J9o should be instamucked.

The turn play really decides the hand. A turn c/r AI is terrible, because you only get called by flushes/straights. Betting is good, 2/3 pot and fold to a raise. Another option is c/c turn and reevaluate the river. If the board pairs I would go for the c/r all in. An open push looks like an obvious boat and all made flushes and straights should fold. If the river was a blank then I'd probably c/f, but it's very read dependant.

How exactly did the hand go down on the turn? OP check-raised all in? What happened?

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

Oh and two more things.

AE - are you betting a blank turn if he checks or taking the free card?

Secondly, I would check the turn (diamond or non D alike) with AA/JJ sometimes as well, probably 25% or so. So I wouldn't nessicarilly assume Hero has KK/QQ because they checked the turn. Sometimes I get too tricky, but that's beside the point. If somebody is so predictable that they would never check a set on the turn there then I think betting any blank turn if it's checked to you is very very +EV. Against me though, you often would get c/r ai, as well as against most players with any trickery.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

On the turn, i did check/push which i am convinced is bad. I considered the possiblilty of him having AxKd or something similar and figured i might be able to take the pot down here...maybe he'll make a big mistake by calling, but i see that i didnt think that one thru too well.


ae - thanks for the thoughts. Honestly, my thoughts were very similar to yours during the hand. I was pretty sure that if the board paired, you would be able to get away from a flush, so i really wasnt getting any implied odds on the turn, which sucks.

Maybe the hand wasnt all that interesting, but it was the most amount of time ive ever thought about a hand. Not because i lost (im not results oriented) but because it DID have many points that i had to consider thruought the hand. Points that i will never have to look at with most 200NL players.


cero - Thanks for the analysis. When i reraised PF with JJ, while my idea wasnt exactly as you stated, that is how i usually play the hand. I wasnt planning on going to the felt with JJ unimproved, but if i hit a set i planned on stacking him. I like what you said about sometimes calling PF, but my problem here is that his hand range is soooo wide in a 4 handed game on the button, i will have trouble putting him on a range thruought the hand.


Thanks guys. I feel this hand really helped my game.

Re: 1/2 NL Middle set vs. 2p2er. DEEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, i did check/push which i am convinced is bad. I considered the possiblilty of him having AxKd or something similar and figured i might be able to take the pot down here...maybe he'll make a big mistake by calling, but i see that i didnt think that one thru too well.


ae - thanks for the thoughts. Honestly, my thoughts were very similar to yours during the hand. I was pretty sure that if the board paired, you would be able to get away from a flush, so i really wasnt getting any implied odds on the turn, which sucks.

Maybe the hand wasnt all that interesting, but it was the most amount of time ive ever thought about a hand. Not because i lost (im not results oriented) but because it DID have many points that i had to consider thruought the hand. Points that i will never have to look at with most 200NL players.


cero - Thanks for the analysis. When i reraised PF with JJ, while my idea wasnt exactly as you stated, that is how i usually play the hand. I wasnt planning on going to the felt with JJ unimproved, but if i hit a set i planned on stacking him. I like what you said about sometimes calling PF, but my problem here is that his hand range is soooo wide in a 4 handed game on the button, i will have trouble putting him on a range thruought the hand.


Thanks guys. I feel this hand really helped my game.

[/ QUOTE ]

So next time you're bet-folding the turn? Your hand is very well defined as not being a straight or flush, so ae could take it away from you regardless of his holding (potentially with AxKd)?