Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

This happened this weekend at The Borgata.

2 players are sitting next to each other and they seem friendly. One is a regular (all the dealers know his name, as do the other regulars), the other is not. They keep showing each other thier cards when one isn't in the hand, many people have asked them to stop.

The hand in question:

The regular makes a huge all in over bet heads up on the river, 2k into a 500 dollar pot. The player facing the bet flips over his cards, showing pocket 8s. And asks his opponent if he should call.

The board is:
5J777, suits not important.

The 2 players go back and forth chating about the hand for a second, then it gets quiet while the player facing the all in contemplates his decision. While he's thinking, the player next to the regular, sits back down and asks to see his cards, the regular shows them to him and he says, "oh man buddy, he only had a pair of fives, you should have called" Everyone at the table is like, stfu, the hand is still live! The guy says, "oh [censored], sorry, and covers his mouth". The player facing the all in calls immediately, and the regular tables Q7.

Floor is called, how do you rule?

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

I'm not sure but my guess...

Two players to a hand rule. Regular's hand is ruled dead.

However, the pot is restored to the size it was before the infraction took place and the $500 pot is awarded to the guy with 88. The regular's $2000 raise is given back to him.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

Floor says: "You people are too stupid to live, but your rake is as good as anybody else's. Carry on."

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Two players to a hand rule. Regular's hand is ruled dead.

However, the pot is restored to the size it was before the infraction took place and the $500 pot is awarded to the guy with 88. The regular's $2000 raise is given back to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasnt sure at first, but this makes sense.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure but my guess...

Two players to a hand rule. Regular's hand is ruled dead.

However, the pot is restored to the size it was before the infraction took place and the $500 pot is awarded to the guy with 88. The regular's $2000 raise is given back to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

Aside from the snarky remark of his/her choosing, the floor rules the bet and call stand, quads take the pot.

Regular is a moron for letting someone sweat his cards while they're in play, bigmouth is a moron for running his mouth about cards in play, pocket-8s is a moron for believing bigmouth and for showing his 88. Being a moron isn't against the rules (thank goodness), though the floor might advise all three against repeating such stupidity in the future.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Two players to a hand rule. Regular's hand is ruled dead.

However, the pot is restored to the size it was before the infraction took place and the $500 pot is awarded to the guy with 88. The regular's $2000 raise is given back to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasnt sure at first, but this makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying if anybody else ever says anything about my cards, I lose 'em? If I'm doing nothing wrong, but a railbird behind me sees my cards and "helps" me with a comment, they're dead? If it's heads-up between me and a guy at the far end of the table and I've ceased carefully protecting my cards, while still not blatantly sharing them, if a neighboring player sees 'em and says something foolish, my hand is dead?

Gotta be careful about punishing folks who didn't do anything wrong.

On the other hand, these two clowns aren't just strangers passing in the night. It's gotta be dealt with. But I'm still not going to rule quad 7's dead.

Guess I'm gonna give quad 7's the pot as it was before 88 called the all-in. Basically give quads what he woulda gotten if 88 had just folded.

And then separate the two schemers and never let 'em sit together again. Maybe send the bigmouth home immediately and tell him if he tries such a stunt again he'll be banned.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]


Two players to a hand rule. Regular's hand is ruled dead.

However, the pot is restored to the size it was before the infraction took place and the $500 pot is awarded to the guy with 88. The regular's $2000 raise is given back to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you give him his raise back? The "infraction" took place after his raise.

Quads is the best hand and wins the $500. 88 gets his $2000 call back. Loudmouth moved to another table.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Two players to a hand rule. Regular's hand is ruled dead.

[/ QUOTE ]
Unless the Borg has a rule against letting someone sweat live cards, why would this be the case? He didn't ask for or accept advice on how to play (and had, in fact, made his last play for the hand), so his hand isn't being played by more than one player.

[ QUOTE ]
However, the pot is restored to the size it was before the infraction took place and the $500 pot is awarded to the guy with 88. The regular's $2000 raise is given back to him.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're going to do this (rolling back the action to the dealing of the river and closing it there), fine, but then regular's hand has to be live and take the pot, since your point is to close the action at a point before things went wrong. It's probably a better solution than letting the bet and call stand and giving the regular the pot, but I have a feeling it requires a bit of deus ex machina on the floor's part.

A better way (though unenforceable) might be for the floor to strongly encourage the regular to give 88 the 2k back.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Regular is a moron for letting someone sweat his cards while they're in play, bigmouth is a moron for running his mouth about cards in play, pocket-8s is a moron for believing bigmouth and for showing his 88. Being a moron isn't against the rules (thank goodness), though the floor might advise all three against repeating such stupidity in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given your ruling, neither the regular nor the bigmouth are morons. They're brilliant angle shooters who just got away with something. Can't imagine why you're calling 'em morons.

As for 88 calling... yeah, he's just been suckered by a pretty obvious angle shot. The couple times I've seen a similar thing, it's been a "do the opposite" tell. If a player's friend "accidentally" reveals his friends cards, you can be certain it was no accident and whatever he just revealed is completely false.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Given your ruling, neither the regular nor the bigmouth are morons. They're brilliant angle shooters who just got away with something. Can't imagine why you're calling 'em morons.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point. I was presuming an innocent mistake.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

It's hard to believe anyone would fall for that. Unless I have the 7 I know anyone betting $2000 into a $500 pot has it. The shill's comments merely confirm it. Given that 88 has exposed his hand in order to presumably "gain information" he only has himself to blame and he's lost all his money. However people don't like this sort of monkey business in a casino so I'd tell the regulars that there's no more showing eachother cards until the hands are over and they show the whole table.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]


Regular is a moron for letting someone sweat his cards while they're in play,

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there a specific rule about this? i.e. players must not show thier hand to another player while the hand is live? Does it fall under protecting one's hand? or is it just an etiquette thing?

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

At my casino if you show another player your cards while the hand is going on any player in the hand can request to see the cards. "Show one show all" but applied DURING the hand.

That being said, quads should take it all down. One player should NOT be penalized for anothers actions.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
At my casino if you show another player your cards while the hand is going on any player in the hand can request to see the cards. "Show one show all" but applied DURING the hand.

That being said, quads should take it all down. One player should NOT be penalized for anothers actions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show-one-show-all is not supposed to apply to showing players who are out of the hand while the hand is still in play. If Bill has already folded and Joe shows Bill his cards, Peter who still has cards does not get to demand to see Joe's cards during play. Common sense, man. On the other hand, if Bill still has cards and chips, then Peter does get to see what Joe showed Bill. If Bill has cards but is already all-in, Joe showing Bill his two cards doesn't impact Peter since Bill can't act on the information.

If your casino has a rule that let's a person still in the hand demand to see cards shown to someone who isn't in the hand anymore, it's pretty unusual. And broken.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

Upon review of Robert's Rules of Poker

POKER ETIQUETTE
The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:

- Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot.

So I think my first answer that Regular's hand should be ruled dead is too harsh a penalty, especially since he had the best hand. I now think Regular should win the pot and him and his friend should get a warning.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

Who called the floor? If the guy with pocket 8s doesn't like the shenanigans, he oughta call the floor immediately rather than wait to see if we wins.

In any case, ship the whole pot, then escort the hand sharers to the cage. They're done for the day.

Edit to add: What'd the real floor say?

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who called the floor? If the guy with pocket 8s doesn't like the shenanigans, he oughta call the floor immediately rather than wait to see if we wins.

In any case, ship the whole pot, then escort the hand sharers to the cage. They're done for the day.

Edit to add: What'd the real floor say?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, if im the one with 88 looking at a $2000 call and the hand gets shown and talked about then I immediately call the floor over and have them kill his bet, he shoukdnt be showing his hand and if he does it should be seen by all or the action is dead. If he went ahead and called its really his own fault. What if you call and he really does have the hand that was called out, then the other guy can call the floor and say he has been screwed. I doubt that would go anywhere since he did show his hand.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who called the floor? If the guy with pocket 8s doesn't like the shenanigans, he oughta call the floor immediately rather than wait to see if we wins.

In any case, ship the whole pot, then escort the hand sharers to the cage. They're done for the day.

Edit to add: What'd the real floor say?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is about right. At the very least send them to differnt tables.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

I think it's the "one player to a hand" rule. Even though the "friend" didn't help the regular play his hand, the regular shared his hand with the "friend" and intentionally involved him in the hand. This wasn't a case where the hand was accidently exposed.

I think you give the regular the $500 pot, eject the "friend" from the casino and warn the regular. Unless you want to encourage such blatent angle shooting and potential collusion at your casino. At my casino, I'd be very severe because I want players to feel comfortable that we don't allow shenanigans.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

First let me say that at my casino we have a rule that players may not show their cards to anyone who was dealt in for the current hand. If they do so they are limited to passive play only (meaning they can only check and call but no longer bet or raise).
This rule does not apply here as according to the OP he showed the hand to his friend after the all in bet, but I think it is a good rule to have and since enforcing it there have been far less calls for the floor.

Another rule of ours is that a player who opens his cards when facing a bet or raise may have his hand ruled dead. Up until today I have always ruled a hand dead if it was a pot or no limit game and the player was facing a large bet. So this would be the point where the hand ends for me (if I am called to the table at that moment).

As it went down I would award the pot to the quads and give the player who miscalled the hand during play a strong warning and remove him from this game. The regular who showed his cards will have a private talk with me during which I explain to him how lucky he got and warn him never to show his cards during play again. The player who opened his cards will not get warned never to do it again as at this point he is probaly calling me all sorts of names and being escorted out by security.

Regards,
RegBarclay

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

The player with 88 should have invoked the "show one show all" rule when Q7 showed his hand to his buddy.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
The player with 88 should have invoked the "show one show all" rule when Q7 showed his hand to his buddy.

[/ QUOTE ]

When it is shown to someone out of the hand you can use "show one show all" to see it after the action is complete.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

I show both of these gentlemen the door. You can't let angle shooters mess up your game. Putting these two idiots on the road sends a clear message to every potential angle shooter in the room.

You probably let them back in the next day but the message will be crystal clear.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who called the floor? If the guy with pocket 8s doesn't like the shenanigans, he oughta call the floor immediately rather than wait to see if we wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sir. I must object. You cannot have the Warren Harding handle and his avatar and use the word "shenanigans".

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

88 opened himself up to being 'angle shot' (not sure I believe he was angle shot).

If he does not expose his 88, the 'friend' does not make his comment.

If the room does not have a rule forbidding the showing of a hand to a non active player, the quads guy has done nothing wrong.

88 is a fool for callin, irregards of the friends comment.

If somebody else at the table had commented to 88, after he exposes his 88, "you can't call 2000 without the 7" , would quad 7's have been compensated ? Heck no !!


Ship the money to quads, warn all 3 about there behaviour and deal the next hand !!

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

dealer rakes and the regular meets the other two in the parking lot with a tire iron

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

How can he call with just 88 on that board anyways? You have to put the dude on an overpair (QQ maybe) or having the case 7. Stupid if he did actually call.

Anyways, if I was floor and called in you have to award the pot to the quads. As far as I know you cannot expose cards prior to action being ended so the 88 hand should be dead at that point. At least thats what I've seen done in the past. The action of the "friend" after the 88 was exposed isn't any better but it doesn't matter because 88's hand should be dead at that point.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

i want to know what the decision was?
normally i would be rooting for the worst possible outcome for the two pals who conned the 88 guy, but since 88 guy thought he was so awesome cool that he could flip his hand to get a read (before any other angle shots were attempted), i hope he lost his 2k.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

Who was the floor person who made the ruling?

What was the ruling?

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

Out and out cheating. I award the pot to the caller and ban both the regular and the accomplice from the cardroom for life.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Another rule of ours is that a player who opens his cards when facing a bet or raise may have his hand ruled dead.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which or how many casinos have this rule? I thought it was OK to flip one or both of your cards to look for a reaction.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

wtf, when is the answer coming?

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

Perfect example og why stupid shizz at the tables is annoying.
Stop being cute everyone and play.
That said: ** you are dumb for calling, you lose; other 2: you go home, come back and be gentlemen next time and it will convince me that there was not cheating this time

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
wtf, when is the answer coming?

[/ QUOTE ]

ahh, [censored] sorry, forgot all about this. Floor ruled the quads winner of the pot as it stood before the all in. Everyone was pissed. The other guy racked up and left immediately, mumbling that he won't play with cheaters under his breath.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]

Stop being cute everyone and play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wtf, when is the answer coming?

[/ QUOTE ]

ahh, [censored] sorry, forgot all about this. Floor ruled the quads winner of the pot as it stood before the all in. Everyone was pissed. The other guy racked up and left immediately, mumbling that he won't play with cheaters under his breath.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the guy who was induced into calling with 88 got his $1500 call back? Good for the Floor for getting that decision right.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

The 88 guy was a complete tool for exposing his hand trying to get a read. I thought this wasn't allowed? When he did this isn't his hand considered folded?

Unless the casino in question specifically allows this, I think he started the whole mess by doing this.

The regular and other guy shouldn't be showing each other their cards and if they've been warned about this already it's probably time to put a stop to it once and for all (a penalty/timeout/etc. after the hand)

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
The 88 guy was a complete tool for exposing his hand trying to get a read. I thought this wasn't allowed? When he did this isn't his hand considered folded?

[/ QUOTE ]

When it's heads up action in a cash game, this is usually acceptable. If it's more than two people in the hand, then the hand can be ruled dead. Also, in tournaments, these rules are different as well.

Re: Another edition of \"You be the floor\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Out and out cheating. I award the pot to the caller and ban both the regular and the accomplice from the cardroom for life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, only thing you left out was a good back rooming!